79. Looking Back: Words of Wisdom to Women in Their 30s

In this reflective and heartfelt episode, Roberta and Sonia dive into all the things they wish they'd known back in their 30s—a decade Sonia's calls "The Great Unlearning." It was Inspired by Søren Kiekegaard's quote, "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards." Sonia and Roberta share relatable stories of divorce, motherhood, career pivots, and self-discovery, they wonder aloud how much smoother life might've been with some timely wisdom from women who've been there.

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Transcript

Roberta (00:18)
Hello everyone and welcome to the podcast. I'm Roberta and We are grown and growing

Sonia (00:22)
And I'm Sonia.

Roberta (00:26)
All right, so today, well first things first, today's wine. We have an orange wine today.

Sonia (00:27)
Ooh.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (00:35)
beautiful color if you can see it as you're viewing. This is a orange wine which technically is a white wine. So it's when white wine has some skin contact. This is a Spanish wine. We actually carry it. This is Kiki and Juan. It's a Macabeo and Sauvignon Blanc.

Sonia (00:42)
Okay.

Is it sweet? I know it's not.

Roberta (00:52)
And yeah,

it's not sweet. It's not. If I had to liken it, I don't know, compare it to something that's not wine, I would say it's kinda like a sour beer.

Sonia (01:04)
Okay. That doesn't sound appetizing to me at all. I mean, some people do. I feel like I would drink that, like that's the color of something that I would drink. And if it had a little fizz to it, and if it tasted like strawberries.

Roberta (01:07)
But some people love sour beer, so.

So basically not

this at all. I know it is a very pretty color. Anywho, this is, specifically this is Kiki and Juan. That's the maker, but it's an orange wine. Yes. On VinBoheme.com.

Sonia (01:23)
How dare you take that beautiful color and make it bitter. Anyway, what's it called again? What's it called?

that's.

And you can find it on VinBoheme.

Now in terms of pricing, how much does that a bottle of wine like that cost when you have to leave the skin in it? okay.

Roberta (01:44)
This is like $20. it doesn't make a difference in the like, making

of the process doesn't impact the price at all. So this is about around what wines cost on our site, which is $20. This is pretty good for a natural wine, yeah. Woman made, woman produced.

Sonia (01:55)
Okay, that's pretty cheap. Okay, very good.

Roberta (02:02)
Anyway, all right, let's jump into today's episode. And I'm gonna start it out with a quote, which is, life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. That's a.

Sonia (02:02)
Dang. Whatever.

Yes.

Why do you like that

quote? It's very thought provoking. Why do you like it? Why did you choose it for this episode?

Roberta (02:22)
Very meta.

Because a lot time we walk through life, I walk through life trying to find the purpose, trying to understand the meaning and different things that have happened in my life and you can't really, not as you're living it, right? And you can't forecast it. So, yeah.

Sonia (02:41)
It's I

was about say it's Joe Biden. Is 45 leaving the White House? What the heck is happening?

Roberta (02:43)
Yes, okay, that's the thing.

my gosh. That's the thing about living in DC is that at least twice an hour you have helicopters above Exactly exactly yes apologies I know But yes

Sonia (02:49)
You

my God, it's not like it's about the land. Black Hawk, about the land in your neighborhood. Okay, I'm sorry, I was distracted.

Roberta (03:03)
Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. And I don't know, it caused me to reflect. And so my original intent and thought in discussing this topic was driven by the notion of breaking generational curses and what that really means. And it can have a lot of different meanings for different people in different situations, but for me, was thinking

Sonia (03:06)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (03:28)
What would have happened if I received the wisdom that I personally have gained in the last 15 years when I was 30? And what kind of...

Sonia (03:36)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (03:38)
movements through the world what I've done differently or you know what if an older family member or coworker or random stranger even on the internet sat down and had conversations with me about the implications of certain decisions and the impact that will have later in life. You know what would I do differently and what I spend a lot of time feeling stuck and potentially making wrong decisions. And so yeah it just made me want to talk in this context of you know what kind of advice if we were sitting down with a group of

Sonia (03:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Roberta (04:08)
30 year olds, what would we say? Like what kind of advice, what kind of wisdom would we want to pass along? It is.

Sonia (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. This is a very Roberta topic. this is, if y'all wondering

the difference between Sonia and Roberta, this is Roberta. Always thinking, always wondering, always questioning. And when you first proposed this topic, I was just like, of course I have questions, right? Because I feel like there's a part of me that looks at topics very logically. I look at life very...

Roberta (04:23)
Always in my head, yes.

Sonia (04:39)
Logically, I break it down into bite-sized pieces and I just thoughtfully boop, boop, boop, boop, put them into steps. And this is very like, I feel like it's like, if I could do it all again. Like there's a sweet, like simplicity to this viewpoint of maybe if I would have had somebody to impart the wisdom in me when I was 30, right? There's like a very rose colored glasses.

Roberta (04:46)
Mm-hmm.

Sonia (05:06)
viewpoint in it that I think is sweet, but it's also not how I think. And so, well, it's looking in the past and wondering if it could have been different. And the answer is yes, it could absolutely be different, but it's not, and you can't make it. And so for me, trying to think like that, I can only think forward. And the only...

Roberta (05:12)
Right, because it's not directly helpful for right now.

Sonia (05:33)
way I could think about this topic in the way that you were thinking about it is to just place my daughter there. Like it's hard to do that for myself or, or to want to rewrite my history, but I can pay it forward and say, okay, well, if this was Sienna, that, that was the mind space I had to get into to approach this topic in that way. So.

Roberta (05:40)
Mm.

Yeah,

and I think that was ultimately my goal, right, of having the discussion and saying these things out loud is what if we could pass this wisdom along? Would that help?

the generation or the people that came after us. And so that by the time they are 40, 45, 50, that they would feel, I don't know, less burdened or they would feel more peace, more happiness, all of those things. And not necessarily skip over those parts, because I feel like life has to be lived in a certain way. You have to learn the lessons that you need to learn. However,

Sonia (06:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (06:31)
Maybe there's crib notes. Maybe there's certain helpful things that could help people and so they're not necessarily struggling so much.

Sonia (06:33)
They're definitely, yeah.

Now,

do you think that you lack this type of wisdom in your 30s? Do you think you've lacked this type of wisdom and guidance? And that's why you do.

Roberta (06:46)
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And in part because of the decisions that I made in my 20s that kind of put me, I was getting divorced at 30, so I feel like I was kind of starting my life, you know, for the most part at 30. And so I was tripping over myself making horrible decisions in dating and choosing career steps and also I don't have siblings to watch them move through life and use as an example.

Sonia (07:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Roberta (07:13)
And I don't have a plethora of friends. So yeah, it was just kind of me kind of bumbling through life. And like looking back, I was like, I could have

Sonia (07:20)
Yeah. I felt,

And I, cause I think of myself at 30, like 30, if we were thinking, we're interacting with somebody who was 17 years our junior, would you have, I think I'm like, would they have listened? Would I have, would you have listened to a 47 year old or a 46 year old, if they came to you in your thirties and was like, sit down Roberta, let me tell you about life.

Roberta (07:35)
Mmm.

You know what, yes if it was done in a way that like let's just have a conversation. Let me tell you the shit that happened to me and hopefully that doesn't happen to you versus don't do this, don't do that.

Sonia (07:55)
who

could do that? Who would you trust to do that? what is the criteria for somebody being able to give you this type of advice?

Roberta (07:58)
Mmm.

That's a really good question. So for me to relate, I would have to see some part of myself, even at that age, some part of myself in whoever I'm talking to or whoever's giving me the advice. Or have some sort of I know them, I trust them, I respect their opinion just in general. So yeah, I would have to have some sort of connection.

But yeah, but also I'm thinking I hesitate because I probably would just take the advice of a random stranger too. Because not that I felt completely lost when I was 30, but I I was just, yeah, making a lot of mistakes.

Sonia (08:36)
Yeah. And I think, you know, I honestly think that's a part of life. That's why I like feel two ways about this discussion because I feel like, does everybody have the perfect, person or guide or person to get advice from, even if you respect your, your parents will say your mom, you know, immensely your mom's life is not your life. It's not your decisions.

Roberta (08:57)
Yeah.

Sonia (08:58)
Right? It's,

Roberta (08:58)
Yep.

Sonia (08:59)
not her time. And so her advice can only be, you know, given through her lens and it can only be received through my lens. And those are two totally unique experiences. and I, I also think that we were probably living very opposite, had very opposite lives at 30, but

Roberta (09:05)
through her lens. Yep.

Yeah.

Sonia (09:21)
You know, I think that we, to a certain extent, I do think people have these type of people, right? And they may not show up as a person to you, but they show up in books. They show up with authors and people like Oprah being on TV, putting on TV the type of content she did. I think the wisdom is there if you seek it and you know how to seek it. It doesn't always have to...

Roberta (09:33)
Mmm.

Sonia (09:48)
come from a person coming up to you and saying, this is girl, this is what I did. This is my life story. And then I was thinking about this, because I was like, is it always advice? Because you talk about generational curses, and I'm just, first of all, I was like, what generational curses are you speaking of specifically? When you say generational curses, what do you mean by that?

Roberta (09:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Resentments, to communicate, harboring, I guess it kind of touches on resentment, but harboring envy and just certain things I feel holds us back. Us, like mostly black people, yeah.

Sonia (10:15)
Mm-hmm.

Who is us? Black women? Okay.

I wanted to ask because I'm like, you know, are they generational curses or are they just human experiences? those feelings aren't necessarily,

for black women to own, because I feel like they belong to everybody. But when you, I think there was a point when we were talking about this, maybe you talked about the strength of women. Now I feel like that's a generational curse, right? Where we have this ability to be strong and people see us as strong, like physically strong. I mean, I think all that literature about black women, black people in general, just not feeling pain or.

Roberta (10:57)
It is.

Sonia (11:12)
always having to be strong. I think that's definitely a generational curse. I don't think that would be, I think it can be fixed with advice, but I also think it can be fixed with just being a soft place to land for black people. Like I feel like we don't have a soft space. We don't have a space that just allows us or we're not given the space to be soft, to be unsure.

to be tired or just to rest. And you know, we're just not given that space. And sometimes it's not advice. Sometimes it's just being that place where you can just exhale, you know? So it may not always be an advice, yeah.

Roberta (11:55)
No, I agree. I

agree. so, okay, so let me respond to some of that. I think that's all very good and very right. think, and look, how long does it take? Eight minutes to get to, I will bring everything back to slavery. Everything that's wrong in the world is either slavery or capitalism.

Sonia (12:02)
Mm-hmm.

All bra, see they're slave

rulers? Exactly. Bing, bing.

Roberta (12:14)
And those two things are connected too, so here we are. No, I feel like we, again, black people, move around out of survival. The decisions and the motivators and the things, even if we're quote unquote successful, I still think we still carry a lot of the survival mentality. and we don't have outright natural places for us to feel safe,

Sonia (12:16)
Right.

Roberta (12:36)
we don't feel upon ourselves to demand that safety. We just kind of suck it up all the time. And it's not to say that we don't have pieces where we try to carve out for ourselves where we do feel safe and at home and at peace, we do. But it's not something that's natural to us, I don't think.

Sonia (12:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I

agree that it's not natural. It's also not easy. I know there are a lot of women, a lot of black women specifically who still say, we are resting. We are not getting involved in this country falling apart. Right? And I feel a way about that because I'm like, y'all, is it time yet? We definitely not rested enough. So I won't ask that question, but is it time? Cause I'm like, it's really looking dim out here. but I just don't think we know how to do it.

Roberta (13:13)
Right.

Sonia (13:20)
And even if you say you're taking rest, what does that mean? Cause I can take a rest from political and I can, you know, separate myself from what's happening politically, but I can't, it's hard to do that when you have a job, when you have kids, when you just, you know, you have parents and you have families. mean, there's, there's a lot more to resting and saying you're resting than, than just, you know, going to the spa. I feel like it just takes more than that.

Roberta (13:20)
Yeah.

popped out red.

Right.

Right. But wouldn't you

say, and kind of bring it back to what you said too earlier about, well that's just not something you can advise on, right? That's just something. But wouldn't you say from this standpoint, where you are now in life, that you have gotten closer to incorporating rest or whatever it is, all the things that bring you more peace and more ease at this point in your life than you had 15, 17 years ago?

Sonia (13:55)
Mm-hmm.

For sure.

Yes, absolutely. And it is a, and I think a series of things brought me to that, like a lot of disappointments, a lot of like, just aha moments where, you know, you realize that what is sold to you is not actually what you bought. You bought something much worse than what you thought. And then I just think for me personally, I was a very like intense person.

I just, you know, got to a point where you just learn to chill, chill out, like just chill out. Everything is not, does not have to be urgent. Everything doesn't have to be solved today. Everything doesn't have to have an answer and everything is not going to go my way. So you might as well. Okay, fine. I'm getting it. Am I, am I, am I jumping ahead here? okay.

Roberta (15:02)
Not really, but I mean, you're

kind of saying, making the point that yes, there are so many things that you've learned over the last 15 or so years. Wouldn't that be nice if we could in, you know, our 20, 30 minutes or however long we're gonna.

Sonia (15:13)
Mm-hmm.

Roberta (15:15)
talk here, chat here, to kind of bring some of that together and summarize that in the hopes that it might benefit someone else. Not even someone that could be someone 30, it could be someone else that's 45, who knows? But I feel like some of those pieces of wisdom, for us, for black women that are where we are at our age, we have experienced so much and we have learned from it and we've taken it and we've changed it and we've made it better.

Sonia (15:19)
Yeah.

Right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (15:45)
and I think

it's worth sharing.

Sonia (15:47)
I appreciate the person where this advice is coming from now, but I want to know the 30 year old Roberta, Where were you in your 30s? Take me through your 30s.

Roberta (15:56)
started, yes, yes,

yes, yes. So, okay, so technically that was 2018. That was our 30s. Right. So at.

Sonia (16:00)
What were you doing?

Two thou- Dang. Okay.

Roberta (16:12)
30 literally, I was getting a divorce. So I got married at 23, I got divorced at 30. And so that's really when my life started, because I had thrown everything, like I learned who I was through my marriage and that wasn't a true lens. So it was me learning how to date, because I didn't, never really dated. I met my ex-husband when I was in college.

Sonia (16:17)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Roberta (16:39)
It was figuring out what I like to do, what my interests are, because again, up until that point, I was just interested in what he was or either what we did together. I was establishing my career. had just finished grad school, determining, and even that, we moved to where his career took us. I was living in the city. I didn't know anyone there. I didn't really necessarily wanna be there, but I was there. So was literally getting established.

Sonia (16:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's a hard and it's a hard city.

So we met in grad school. It's a hard city to do what we went to grad school for. It was hard to do in that city.

Roberta (17:14)
Yeah. Right, right. And so, yeah, not long after we graduated, I moved to like the Philly area. And so it was me kind of just starting my life there, really at 30. And so I was immature. I was doing all the things you typically do in your 20s, hanging out, you know. Yeah, this is my 30s. so and I moved to D.C. I was like maybe 32, 33. And so it more of the same. This is like it's a

Sonia (17:31)
These are your 30s. Yeah.

Wait, you moved to DC

at 32? Really?

Roberta (17:42)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And this is a party city. A party city for professionals. So, I was a, that is a very 2003. But no, I was just outside. And so, like dating, but not intentionally. I was dating to have fun.

Sonia (17:48)
When you wear your blazers to the club.

2003 thing, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (18:04)
I was meeting, making new friends. I was getting into my career, starting to have a little bit of confidence in just my own capabilities and being able to take care of myself and pay bills. That was my mid-30s. So yeah, if I were to talk to my 30-year-old self, first of all, I'd have to, I don't know, wake her up from a nap or something because she's about to go out to the club. like... No, not at all.

Sonia (18:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Remember, yes, you did sleep late. Do not call Roberta before noon. You're a little better now.

You're better now. I still wouldn't call, but I know you're probably up. Maybe.

Roberta (18:32)
little better, but like no.

Yeah, no,

and where people were, well, I'm not gonna speak on anybody else. I'll speak on myself. I was just floating at 30.

Sonia (18:48)
All right, so I'm going to give you a sense of where I was. Complete opposite. I had been married for two years. I got married at 28 and we had decided to build this big, beautiful, what some people might call a forever home. We decided to build that in our first year of marriage. In fact, we got married in December and we moved in that house like the following summer. So we were,

Roberta (18:49)
Where were you? Yeah.

Sonia (19:15)
newly married, have just, we had built this house about a year or two ago. And it was right around 30 that I started to realize that we shouldn't have bought that house. Actually, I actually knew it was a nice house. It was the house that I should have now, but I had it back when I shouldn't have had it. But yeah, I actually knew when I was signing the papers that I shouldn't have had this house. I knew when I was signing the pa-

Roberta (19:26)
I remember that house. It was a nice house.

Eh.

Cool.

Sonia (19:45)
Well, for one very obvious reason. One, was like, wow, this is not my salary. I was like, I told the loan officer, I'm like, this is not my salary. My salary is not this. And they were like, don't worry about it. I was like, this interest, like we did like an 80-20 loan. So I was one of the ones who...

Roberta (19:51)
Wait, what?

Okay, ladies and right. I would say ladies and gentlemen, this is this

is part of the bubble part of the

Sonia (20:07)
I caused the housing crisis.

I'm sorry, y'all.

Roberta (20:13)
Okay, all right.

Sonia (20:13)
It

was, it was in, but I was so naive and so trusting. This is not a jab at my husband, but I was so trusting him. He's older than me and trusting this loan officer. And I was the youngest and probably the most green person at the table. And I had no idea what I was signing. and also the house was in my name only as a cherry on top. and so by 30, I was realizing like, this was a mistake.

Roberta (20:16)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm. Mm, mm, mm.

Yeah.

Sonia (20:43)
And also

I hate where we moved. hated York. York, Pennsylvania. Sorry. Sorry, Freddie York. Back then it was not, y'all know if you there, maybe it's come up now, but I did not, it wasn't a place for a newlywed couple with no kids. had a house with four bedrooms. I ain't even going three of the bedrooms. was exactly, I was there at 30, but, and so yeah, we were.

Roberta (20:47)
Yeah, you were out in the sticks.

Ha ha ha!

Yeah

I mean, that's how I was at 25. Anyway.

Sonia (21:11)
So we lost that house. did it, it wasn't a foreclosure, but it was very close. It was very close. We had to do a short sale. I feel like I was one of the first people in the country to do a short sale because nobody knew what the heck they were doing. It was crazy.

Roberta (21:25)
Honestly,

the house I'm in now is a short sale and the only reason I knew what that was like walking into it is because of your situation

Sonia (21:31)
You don't see a blessing.

Glad it blessed somebody. It certainly did bless me. Actually, it was a blessing. That was a blessing. Look, all things came to work for my good because Obama got elected. I was able to short sell my house without any tax implications because normally when you sell and they discharge a loan amount for that, I mean, we owed hundreds of thousands on this house.

Roberta (21:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (21:58)
and we were

able to discharge that and all I had to do was give up my favorite dishwasher. I have yet to find a dishwasher as nice as that one in that house. It was lovely. Anyway, give up my dishwasher and have my, and go away with my terrible, terrible credit. So yeah, I was, I was doing that as soon as we left that house, we moved back to Baltimore. A year later, I was pregnant with my son.

Roberta (22:07)
Are you serious?

Sonia (22:27)
Um, at age of 32, I had my daughter at 34. didn't, and they're two years apart and I now I realize it was perfect. But at the time I was so upset about it. I was upset about it because I wasn't ready. I actually found out I was pregnant, um, the week my son turned one. And so, and he wasn't even walking yet. He was still, I was still carrying him around in diapers. Yes.

Roberta (22:50)
I don't know if I knew that. Wow. Yeah,

yeah.

Sonia (22:53)
when I found out I was pregnant. So my career wasn't really thinking about it. I switched from working in an ad agency to working what we call client side, working the health system. And I really wasn't focused on my career at all. I was really just focused on raising these babies that were 20 months apart and just trying to do that the best I could. There was also...

Roberta (23:18)
Yeah.

Sonia (23:20)
I would say this is probably the rockier part of my marriage because we were just learning how to be married. told you like, you know, realizing that you can't afford this house that you just bought, but that puts a lot of strain on your marriage. I was working at the time in Harrisburg, which is a half hour away from York going North. And Derek was working in Baltimore, an hour South.

Roberta (23:37)
Yeah.

Sonia (23:45)
And so we never really saw each other. It was just, to me, I was, feel like that was the most stressful part of our marriage. But I would say around the age of 37, that's when I really like dialed in to my career. I had just, you know, I lost my house. We moved back to Baltimore. I think, you know, there comes a certain point when you have kids that you...

the fog is lifted and you just feel like I just threw myself into my career because it just felt good. It felt good to be good at my job. I got so many promotions during that period of time. I, like I was just every two years like promotion, promotion, know, like rising through this company. And so it was a, it was a really good time. But you know, when I look back at my thirties, I definitely see that as I

Roberta (24:19)
Yeah.

Sonia (24:39)
dubbed it the great unlearning because I was learning unlearning a lot of things that I thought I knew. I thought I knew how to be married. I thought I knew how to, you know, to go after my career and be a career woman and a mom. Never had the thought that I would be a stay at home mom. Never wanted to be. I always wanted to be a career mom. But you know, when you have kids, it's a struggle. Like how do I do that? And you know,

Roberta (24:41)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Sonia (25:08)
I really think, you know, God's looking out for me because he put me in the right company that will allow me to figure out how to do both. And that's what I can say about that. But I see my thirties as a time when the varnish comes off in that early. Like you're just like, huh? you said communicate, but you didn't really in a marriage, but you really tell me how to communicate. Like stop telling married couples that you got to communicate. No, the, the, the real answer is you got to learn how to communicate.

Roberta (25:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (25:38)
That's the,

cause y'all could just be talking. It's like the literal act of communicating, but not saying anything and not listening. But yeah, I feel like, what? Go ahead.

Roberta (25:41)
Right?

That's so interesting.

that is very true. And I learned those lessons in my 20s when I was married. And a lot of those lessons brought me to the divorce. It was me that decided to leave. And I was like, this is just not where I need to be for my life. And...

Sonia (26:00)
Mm.

Roberta (26:08)
I didn't talk to anyone about it. I mean, I had a therapist, but I didn't talk to my friends about it because they were out living their floating around lives at 20. And there's probably things I could have shared with them, like the inner, not inner workings of my marriage, but just the things that I learned from that phase of my life that just didn't. And honestly, probably would have fallen on deaf ears a little bit. Like, yeah.

Sonia (26:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

It would have helped me, but also Roberta,

was out, when you say you was out here, you was out here. I remember that time in your, I remember you in the 30s.

Roberta (26:40)
I remember, it's

not even that long ago, like, when the day parties started hitting DC, was like, don't know, 2013, 2012, I just remember me being, there was this one place called Cities, and the party was really in the back part of the area, and I just remember me being up on the couches, dancing, in a little mini skirt.

be all of like 34, 35. And in the back of my mind, it wasn't that, like I knew I wanted a family and all that, but like I had just been out. I feel like I'd just been released and like coming into myself and figuring out what. And honestly, I think I took it for granted because I was like, well, I had a husband once, it can't be that hard, but like I can do it again.

Sonia (27:08)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I think that the other unfortunate thing about the time period that we were coming up in as it relates to having kids is that we didn't know about IVF. We didn't know about freezing eggs. People didn't talk about it as much as they talk about it now.

Roberta (27:43)
people did not, especially amongst black

women. When I tell you that was that whole experience of learning about fertility, doing three rounds of egg freezing, they don't talk about amongst us. So this is what happens, right? I feel like this is like a truism for most black women is that we get inundated as teenagers don't have sex, don't have sex, don't get pregnant, don't get pregnant, birth control.

Sonia (28:06)
Don't get pregnant. no, not even don't have, don't

get pregnant.

Roberta (28:10)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Do whatever you gotta do. Don't get pregnant. If a boy sits next to you, you're gonna get pregnant. Don't let a boy touch you. And so...

Sonia (28:17)
Man, who said that? They

don't buy say that.

Roberta (28:21)
Where I came, my God, it was just don't do anything with boys And so enough of that gets drilled into your brain that you think that anyone a little time, I have sex, I'm getting pregnant. And so you just, you carry that into your adulthood. And really, truly, what I learned is it's really hard to get pregnant. It's a miracle.

Sonia (28:25)
Okay.

Yeah.

Roberta (28:42)
Yeah.

Sonia (28:43)
Anyway, I just feel like you didn't have the opportunity to, for science, well, science was there, I guess, but it wasn't as widespread, it wasn't as talked about. And so that is an unfortunate thing for women, for women who are in our age. We didn't get to have those conversations early because apparently you have to save them earlier than what I thought, right? I thought 35, 36, 37 was okay, but it turns out...

Roberta (28:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, no. Really and truly,

yeah, you should really, if you're gonna freeze, you really should do it in your 20s. But who can afford that? Each round of egg freezing is $15,000.

Sonia (29:21)
Wow dang

Roberta (29:23)
And that's like inclusive of like all the medications and like, just like now, why about saying insurance covers it, but they don't cover egg freezing. Some insurance plans now cover IVF and IUI.

Sonia (29:25)
That's crazy.

No. But only like one round

of IVF. ours does.

Roberta (29:38)
Right, and it's very spotty. It's not consistent

from insurance to insurance. But what I guess my point, my larger point is that if you know that that's something that you may want for your life, educate yourself and be intentional in how you move so that you can make that happen and you're not like 40 trying to scramble and figure it out or just miss the boat or the window altogether.

Sonia (29:50)
Yeah.

Okay, so you was outside, I was inside. We both were around the same age. We both were trying to figure this career thing out. All right, now we can give our lessons. Now that you know the type of people you were dealing with, let's see if these lessons would have been like, ding ding ding, would have helped. So your first one was be clear on your life goals. Be clear on them. And I would say be clear on them, but also...

Roberta (29:59)
Smells awesome. Yes.

Yes.

Let's see... Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (30:27)
know that they'll change. They can change.

Roberta (30:29)
Just give

space for flexibility, but be intentional to the extent that you can be intentional. It may change, you may decide, I keep using this family thing as an example, because it's just easy, but if you decide at 20 something, 30 something that this is what I want for my life, and then at 38 you decide, you know what, and it still hasn't happened for you, you decide this is not what I want, okay, be intentional about that. How are you gonna spend the next, how many, 40, 50 years of your life?

Sonia (30:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

All right. So my first lesson is, mean, this sounds very deep, but, I, I wrote the, your power is in your response. And I wrote that because, you know, a lot of things happen to you, right? And a lot of people say a lot of things to you. There is so much power. The most power you have is in how you respond. and for me, this is,

Roberta (31:04)
Okay.

Sonia (31:21)
really centered around control. I think it took me longer than I care to admit that I cannot control, you know, people. cannot change people's minds. I cannot wish that they would do what I would like them to do or see me in a different way. Or I really want you to understand how I, feel. Look, I have no control over that. And

What has really helped me find some control in that is my response to people. Because however they respond, they are entitled to respond that way. Go ahead, respond that way. It doesn't change my decision. It doesn't change what I'm going to do. Give people the space to respond the way they want, but you still do what is right for you. So I feel like,

Roberta (32:14)
Yes.

Sonia (32:18)
Whenever we have arguments and it doesn't turn out the way that I want, go, I flip off and my response is not what I want it to be. I'm like, I just gave up my power. That's how I feel. I feel like I gave up my power because I didn't respond in a way that I know was the best, that was the most productive and was the way that I was going to communicate how I was feeling the best and which gave it the

Roberta (32:27)
Interesting

Sonia (32:48)
the potential to be heard the best. And I'm learning that the power is in how I respond. And what that means is I need to be thoughtful. I need to be intentional. I also need to be connected to who I am, what I value, who I say I want to be. And then I need that to come out in my responses. And the more I know that about myself, the closer I am to that thing.

Roberta (33:06)
Mm-hmm

Sonia (33:17)
the more I want it reflected in how I respond to people. so I'm still, I'm still learning, but it is, it's a different perspective for at least for me to think about, yo, the power is in you. The power is how you respond to people and they're entitled to feel however they feel. If they feel mad, that's unfortunate that you feel mad.

Roberta (33:21)
Oof. That is a word.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

Sonia (33:45)
It doesn't

change anything about what I said or what I did, especially if it's not trash, right? If I'm not acting in a trash behavior. Now, if you are trash and you acted like trash, like that's different, but you know.

Roberta (33:48)
Yep.

That very much sounds to me, I know this is like a trendy, buzzy thing now, but like boundaries. So people fling that word around in that phrase, but they don't know how to use it. which, exactly, but nope.

Sonia (34:05)
Mm-hmm.

They do, but they don't how to use it. They think boundaries is about the other person and like getting them to do something. It's not, it's about

what you're going to do. Yeah.

Roberta (34:18)
Exactly. This

is like I'm framing out my parameters. This is what I'm going to do. Now can share them with you. I can share my boundaries or like what I prefer. I do not, that doesn't mean that I can then expect you to do something. You know what I mean? The boundaries are about protecting me.

Sonia (34:22)
Mm-hmm.

The boundaries are about, yeah, and it's like letting them know what you're going

to do, not requesting that they do something different. It's like, you can do that, but I won't be here to experience it. I'm leaving. Yeah.

Roberta (34:41)
Exactly.

Exactly. And I think yes.

So what I would tell my younger self is to really internalize that notion. It's not so much, and people again say, you should communicate, you should communicate. Okay, communication is telling people what your boundary is, but the real boundary is what you said, it's the response, it's your reaction, it's how are you going to move in response to the world happening around you. That is the real lesson, that is the real challenge.

Sonia (34:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah,

it is a challenge. All right, what's your lesson number two?

Roberta (35:13)
Yeah.

Okay, resilience. And I'm still learning that. So I've spent so many, so many years of my life trying to avoid pain, trying to avoid sadness. was taught from a very young age that negative things are bad, you know?

Sonia (35:17)
What about it? Yeah.

Hmm

Roberta (35:35)
my, you know, if you get hurt as a child, my mother running and trying to, you know, protect me. And to an extent that's good, but it really, I had a hard time learning resilience, meaning trying to regulate myself, my own emotions. And so one interesting quote that I came across recently that really like kind of moved me was the only way to gain resilience is to live in the opposite.

Sonia (35:46)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (36:05)
So the only way to be okay with pain, you have to live in pain. And you have to live in the sadness. And you have to really understand, accept, and internalize that loss and all these negative pieces of life is a part of life just as much as happiness and joy and all the positive fun things.

Sonia (36:05)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, have a, yeah, I had a different take. I do believe in resilience and I think that's a great lesson. I think when I thought about resilience, for me, it wasn't that I avoided pain. Like I felt the pain. sometimes it's, I would try to push it down and pretend like, like I would rush myself through the pain, rush myself and not give myself the,

Roberta (36:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sonia (36:55)
ability to sit with it and be okay with it. It was always like, all right now, buck up, hurry up. You can cry now, but that's it. You ain't crying no more. there is this, yeah. And I think going back to the one of those generational curses,

Roberta (36:57)
Yeah. Yep.

Right. Yep.

Sonia (37:12)
And I have to remind myself of it, you know, to, that it's okay to feel this emotion. And I try to get that into my kids, you know, and I try to explain that to my husband because he's very much of like, just, you know, be a man.

Roberta (37:12)
Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Buck up and yeah. So here's

the thing, the gag is, like the more you get used to feeling it and pain or loss or whatever the thing is and seeing that you're going to be okay, that you are okay, the next time that thing happens, the next time you experience loss or the next time you experience any kind of pain, it will become easier. It will become more manageable.

Sonia (37:49)
Yeah.

Well, yeah, because you realize, I think there is this realization that when you're in it, you feel like you'll never get over it and you will. that's the, so, okay, that brings me to my next lesson. So, it was don't shy away from hard decisions. I think that if I could look back on, you know, some of the poorer decisions that I've made, particularly in my thirties, it was because I was,

Roberta (37:59)
You'll never get over it, right? You will.

Yes.

Sonia (38:19)
scared to make a hard decision. I was scared to tell somebody no, or scared to say how I really felt, or scared that this decision was gonna bankrupt me. just so, there's so many things. But, you know, I think, I don't know who started saying this, I think it was that white lady who has a podcast whose name I can't remember, but she says, can do hard things. You can do hard things.

Roberta (38:20)
Mmm.

A lot of fear.

I don't remember who said it.

Sonia (38:46)
Yeah,

it goes along with your resilience. you, life is not easy. There will be hard decisions that you have to make and you should not shy away from them. You should approach them thoughtfully. Don't rush through them. Don't avoid them, but you should meet them head on. You should get help if you need help deciding. But ultimately,

Roberta (38:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sonia (39:13)
you will recover from the decision. And so don't feel like you can't make hard, don't shy away from those hard decisions, those hard discussions, because eventually it's going to be made for you. And I think the power is in you making it yourself. Yeah.

Roberta (39:26)
Yeah.

That part, that

part. I've been in, just like a couple years ago, like last year, my ex partner, was like, okay, this job is stressing you out, you're not gonna be able to do this, you should make some changes, and I'm like, no, I'm just gonna push through, push through, and what happened? I got fired. Like, universe made the decision. Because you're a big bully. But the universe, I hated that job.

Sonia (39:45)
That's not funny, why did I laugh? didn't mean to laugh. I didn't mean to laugh. But yeah, you did hate the job.

Roberta (39:57)
But...

Sonia (39:59)
So also, you know, take those people's money until you can find something else to do. Yeah.

Roberta (40:01)
Well, that was my intention, that was my

plan or whatever. But again, just like you said, make those decisions before those decisions are made for you. honestly, that is a lighter end of, because it could be something different. I could have been pushing, pushing, pushing, and then I got sick or something, had a heart attack, God forbid. Thank God that didn't happen. be more proactive in your life versus letting things happen. Yeah.

Sonia (40:09)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, take a, get in the driver's seat. That's

what I would say. Go ahead, what's your next one?

Roberta (40:31)
Also, okay, so the

next one, so it kind of goes along with the job thing. Pace yourself. I see so many, and maybe this is a result of me living in DC and there's so many overachievers here and professional people or whatever. People, we, and I'm in that group, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, 25 to 35, my career, and I enjoyed it, I enjoyed what I did, but I worked so much and I put so much energy into it.

Sonia (40:38)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Roberta (41:00)
By the time I was in my late 30s, early 40s, I was burnt out, completely burnt out. And still realizing, because capitalism, I need to work for probably another 10 to 20 years. Look, listen, well I ain't got no kids, so I'm hoping to retire in another 10 years.

Sonia (41:05)
Mm-hmm.

Just 10, I think I got, I think I ought to work for 20. Okay, see, look

at that, the bright side of life.

Roberta (41:24)
Jesus.

Yes, pace yourself, please, please, please pace yourself.

Sonia (41:30)
Yeah,

like pace yourself because you can't, I think there is such this rush to have everything now, hence me buying a freaking house I couldn't afford to have a marriage that I didn't know anything about, this idealized marriage in my head, in this big house that I was not ready for. Yeah. TV.

Roberta (41:50)
same.

Same. Who told us to do that? Who said that was the right thing to do? It's probably...

Sonia (41:59)
We were accomplished. you know, going back to the, you're checking boxes First comes love, then comes marriage. Then comes the, it didn't say have a big house though. said a baby and a baby carriage. It ain't say nothing about a big house, but where you gonna raise the baby? Okay. My third lesson, is, get to know and understand fear.

Roberta (42:07)
Look, there comes a divorce and the foreclosure of the short sale.

Mm-mm.

Sonia (42:23)
I feel like you gotta have a relationship with fear and this may require you getting help with it a la therapy, a la working on it. I always say and what I teach my kids is the goal is to not, is to not not feel fear. The goal is to, did I say that right? The goal is to not feel, goal is to not not feel fear. Okay, that's weird. But the goal is to work through it.

Roberta (42:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

There you go with your double negative. Alright.

Sonia (42:51)
Right? Be scared, do it anyway, those kinds of things. But here's what I want to say, because that's easy to say, fear don't just show up and be like, hey, I'm fear. Mm-hmm, you know you scared. It's not, right? It doesn't show up, it's sneaky. It shows up in perfectionism. It shows up in procrastination. It shows up in analysis paralysis, that's me. It shows up in self-sabotage. And so...

Roberta (42:53)
Mm-hmm.

Right, and you just tell it to sit down, right?

Mmm.

Sonia (43:15)
It's very, that's why I said, may need to get help in identifying that these things are happening, but because it's sneaky and it will disguise itself as something else. And really what you should be doing is trying to develop a relationship with fear so that you can identify, you know, what it is that is keeping you from doing the things that you want to do. Right. And I think, you know, fear,

Roberta (43:19)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Sonia (43:43)
could be the opinion of others, it could be of failure, it could be a fear of success, a fear of looking stupid. But I just feel.

Roberta (43:49)
I feel like the whole notion

of imposter syndrome is fear. That's something that I never really Experienced but I feel like that's based in fear

Sonia (43:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. mean, I think, I think imposter syndrome was a thing. Like when we were like in our thirties, right? That was a thing that people talked about a lot. I didn't feel like an imposter, It was a fear of being in the room and a fear of not, showing my best self.

Roberta (44:03)
No.

Sonia (44:14)
Right? It wasn't a fear that people were going to find out because some people I work with, they're you know, they're not too bright. Okay.

Roberta (44:23)
was about to say, once I got into those rooms and I realized that most of these people in these rooms are idiots, I'm like, what the hell? I can do better than these people? I'm like, spent half my time wondering how they got there, not how I got there.

Sonia (44:29)
Right, you like, exactly. That's exactly right.

I don't know, think environments can make you feel like you have imposter syndrome when it really is like sexism or racism or some other ism popping up in your office.

Roberta (44:44)
No.

of being seen or something. I

Sonia (44:48)
So yes, get to know fear.

It doesn't negate the fact that you have to be prepared. Like you can't be like, throw, I'm fearless. I'm just gonna do it scared. Don't mean do it unprepared. Just, or do it reckless. Like you still gotta, you know, put some balance in there. So anyway, we had some bonus tips cause we couldn't look, there's a lot. Couldn't fit all the tips in here.

Roberta (44:56)
yeah. I'm feeling something just yeah. Right. Right. Right. Get your shit together.

you

Wow, we've experienced a

lot. I've experienced a lot. I've learned a lot in the last 15 years. Yes, all right, so one of the one, I know I do have a mentee. One of the one, don't circle the block. I learned that one many times over, whether that's a job, a relationship, anything, like any little thing. A hairstylist, I was just like, let me give him one more chance. No, he messed my shit up again.

Sonia (45:17)
Yes. That's why you need a minty. Share all this.

Don't.

Don't circle the block.

Roberta (45:42)
Mm-mm.

Sonia (45:42)
What's your worst circle the block moment? Was it with a job, a hairstylist? What was it?

Roberta (45:49)
hairstylist.

Sonia (45:50)
That was the worst Circle the Block moment. Why? What'd they do? They butchered you?

Roberta (45:53)
Well, okay, first of

all, I have like tight curly hair. So if you do anything wrong with this, it was both, he put a keratin treatment in my hair. It made it straight and it took a long, it's still growing out. Like for me to grow out a bad hairstyle takes about three to five years. So this was in the last few years.

Sonia (46:01)
it made it straight, super straight.

so this was recent.

When did you have straight hair?

Roberta (46:19)
You didn't realize it? I mean, I tried to like use products and stuff, but it was a whole section over here that was like straight and the rest of it was curly. It was just a mess. was trying to like loosen the curl a little bit. learn your lesson and move on. Don't try it again.

Sonia (46:32)
You did well. I didn't notice. I wouldn't have pointed out. Well,

my worst circle of the blurk moment was with a job. Nope. Don't do it. I was like, Ooh, no. So I, it was my first job out of college. I worked in DC, Dupont circle in a, a financial services company. worked with a bunch of men. Loved my job, loved my experience, but I quit to go to grad school.

Roberta (46:40)
Mmm.

Wait, you quit? Wait, what happened?

Mm.

Sonia (47:01)
And after grad school, after I realized that advertising pays pennies, I was like, I don't know, I can't do this. This is, I need a different life. I want more. I thought I would go to the same company, but in Baltimore. No girl, different vibe, different people, different office politics, different environment. They were still using typewriters. said, they were like, I'm going to type this letter for the, for the senior partner. I said, type?

Roberta (47:21)
Yeah.

Wasn't

it like a consultancy or something?

Sonia (47:30)
On

a computer? No, on the typewriter. On a type!

Roberta (47:36)
Weren't they supposed to be known for being like cutting edge, innovative, like helping businesses, you know?

Sonia (47:42)
They helped

basically shelter money from taxes. I mean, in the division I worked in, they would come up with all sorts of things like Sarbanes, Oxley, all this stuff. They would look for loopholes in the tax code so they could help businesses save money. I went to Baltimore, I said, oh no, oh no, no, no,

Roberta (47:47)
I'm

At least you, because I don't think you, when you went back, you weren't there long. So at least you realize, like, or.

Sonia (48:07)
18 months, it was the longest

18 months of my life. And I was only there because I was getting married. I was like, never again.

Roberta (48:15)
So at least

you, again, so you learned the lesson like early on, relatively, like you could have been there for five years and be like, I gotta get out here. No, you waste your time. Don't waste your time.

Sonia (48:22)
Hell no, it was not possible. And also

I was scared I was gonna die from the printer that they put in my office.

Why am I, just because I print color don't mean I need to be next to the color printer.

Roberta (48:36)
What? They had you in the copy room?

Sonia (48:38)
Yes. They were like, but you use it the most.

Roberta (48:44)
Oh my god, this is horrible. This is horrible working conditions. Oh my god, right. Did I ever tell you when I worked for Philip Morris? Oh my god.

Sonia (48:49)
my God. Derrick was like, you're gonna die if keep breathing those f-

yes, you told me that they still smoked in the office.

Roberta (48:59)
They still

smoked in the office. When I came in, I thought I was like hot shit because I was like, I don't know, 20 something and I had my own office. But I would have to come into this room, right, and wipe down my desk with a paper towel every day because the soot from the ventilation system would drop on my desk and I would have to clean it off every day. That's why I was breathing in every day. went through, I went through two air filters, two, like I brought in my own air filters. I went through two of them in, don't even know, a couple months.

Sonia (49:18)
I feel like there's a lawsuit there. Oh my gosh.

Alright, well my next honorable mention is learn the value of delayed gratification. me, so delayed gratification is something I learned after I lost my house. I feel like, delaying, learning how to delay,

Roberta (49:30)
Anyway.

Sonia (49:57)
big decisions around money, and not to put the want of having the thing or the excitement of the thing before financial responsibility, was a huge thing that I leaned into.

Roberta (50:08)
Okay.

Sonia (50:11)
And so I think it's a lesson that served me very well, especially in this world where everything is quick. Everything is, you have to have it now. I mean, I think it goes back to your lesson of pacing yourself. Yes. And you get all that stuff quick and then you just have a bunch of junk that's not even quality. Like, why don't you delay your gratification for a little bit? Number one, to see if you can do it, to see if you have the discipline, to see if you really want it. And then when you get it,

Roberta (50:17)
Yeah.

It's the Amazon culture. Yeah.

Sonia (50:40)
when you're able to do it, it's that much more enjoyable to me, right? And for me, I feel like that lesson has helped me so much. it's something, when I think about financial literacy for my kids, that's the thing that I want to teach them, like delayed gratification. Daughter has it, son, he on the struggle bus with it. He be on eBay every day. I said, if another package show up from eBay.

Roberta (50:44)
Yeah, that's fair.

my gosh,

how's he buying all this stuff? With what? He got a job?

Sonia (51:06)
He has a card. No he doesn't

have a job. He gets birthday money.

for sure. Okay, I'm sorry,

Roberta (51:10)
Interesting. Huh.

Sonia (51:12)
go ahead.

That was our longest one.

Roberta (51:16)
Okay, so we're gonna round this one out and we're gonna wrap it up with a call to action. one challenge I would give to the listeners this week is to, one, consider mentorship. If you're interested at all in...

Sonia (51:23)
Okay, go ahead.

Roberta (51:35)
acknowledging the wisdom you have and passing it along to others. Consider getting a mentee. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a career perspective. It can be from a life perspective. So yeah, maybe look into that.

Sonia (51:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Oh, that was your, I thought you had something else. I don't know, that's what you had, okay. Cause I liked your idea. I'm gonna steal it then and fold it into what I said. you had it write a letter to your younger self, you know, thanking them and.

Roberta (51:59)
Okay. Okay.

Sonia (52:11)
appreciating them, appreciating the ride, sharing the lessons that you've learned. what does that person need to hear? If you were mentoring yourself back then at a difficult time in your life, what would you say to yourself? What would your younger self want to know about your older self?

Would she be proud of you? Would she be cracking up? Like what would she be thinking? So I really like that idea.

Roberta (52:35)
Yeah, cool.

So yeah, try it. Let us know what you think. If you feel good about yourself.

Sonia (52:39)
Let us know what you think. Yeah,

we're going to get you a little mentee out here in these streets,

Roberta (52:48)
Yeah, I have this

one mentee, and she's in grad school and I love her to death and it's just, I see a lot of her in me, but also like, girl, I'll get it together. Yes.

Sonia (52:58)
God, I had a mentee too, but we're gonna save that for another

day. Follow us on the socials and our new website is out, grownandgrowingpodcast.com. Check it out. You can watch this on YouTube, also on Spotify, and please leave us a positive review. Please leave us a five star review if you can, or send us a shout out on social media. We'll take it. We're not above begging. All right.

Roberta (53:08)
Yay!

I'll take it now.

Sonia (53:25)
Thanks everybody so much and we'll see you next time.

Roberta (53:28)
Bye.