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Grown and Growing Podcast
83. Spirituality: Unpacking Tradition and Finding Your Truth Part 2
In part two of this conversation, we dive deeper into spirituality, ancestors, and the personal beliefs that shape our journeys. We’re unpacking what it truly means to connect with our ancestors and exploring how these personal experiences redefine faith. We also chat openly about questioning long-held beliefs, pushing beyond the boundaries of organized religion, and why embracing our roots and community is key to growth. It’s all about finding what resonates deeply and staying true to ourselves.
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Sonia (00:31)
for instance, Yadira, you just mentioned ancestors. Now, to some people, ancestors are just people who have died who used to be here and they're not here anymore. Or ancestors can be described as spiritual guides or people who are here with us spiritually and they have...
something to say? Like, what role do ancestors play when you think about God and ancestors? How do they interplay in your mind?
Emanuel (00:58)
I have an answer from the perspective of a practitioner of like an African traditional religion, which is like, Hoodoo So, but before I get into that, feel like these types of questions also, I feel like they should remind us that a lot of what we know about religion as colonized people was told to us by colonizers. So like the, and the fact that
Yadira (01:19)
Thank you.
Sonia (01:19)
Mm-hmm.
who wanted to
keep us in line.
Emanuel (01:24)
Absolutely. And the fact that they told us these things like should never be forgotten. I feel like that should be a constant point that is brought up. So we are always questioning and pushing back what is authentic, what is of God and what's not. And to me, that is one of my life.
Roberta (01:24)
right.
Right.
Emanuel (01:45)
biggest points of contention with a lot of like these black evangelical Christians out here is that they just take what we were told about religion of Christianity and for them is law like you can't You can't even review or reassess like anything. So in terms of like Where do ancestors play a role is you also have to look at history like before colonization just about
Every indigenous community has some type of religious or spiritual practice that honor the ancestors like that is a fact like you go
Sonia (02:18)
And what is the
purpose of honoring ancestors?
Emanuel (02:21)
So honoring ancestors is one to maintain the cycle of like spirituality of life, like of birth, life and death. And also understanding that in life, we have access and exposure to things, but also in death, our ancestors also have access and exposure and views of things that we can't comprehend. And at least in the African traditional religions, the point of ancestors,
Sonia (02:41)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (02:45)
is one to maintain the health of your spiritual lineage because there are lot of traditions that believe that the dead and the yet to be born are in the same place. You know what saying? like, it's, some would call it heaven. Yeah, some people, some traditions have other words for it. But the point is, as the person who's alive, when you tend to your ancestors, you sort of keep that cycle of blessings, honor, health, goodwill.
Roberta (02:55)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (02:55)
⁓
Is that heaven?
Okay.
Emanuel (03:13)
prosperity and stuff going. ⁓ So in terms of like where your ancestors come in in terms of and like why I, some of us, some people honor our ancestors is the fact that Protestant Christianity has told us that like there is nothing between you and God. Like absolutely nothing. And like, and even when you think about your relationship to God, you are like
Sonia (03:15)
Mm-hmm, okay
Mm-hmm.
Right, right, yeah.
Emanuel (03:39)
way down here and like God is up here and and to come in contact with God you got to do certain things you got to be a certain person you got to go to a certain place you got to offer certain like you know whatever to to to be in God's presence from a yeah
Roberta (03:40)
Hmph.
Sonia (03:54)
Well, not, I have to, cause...
In
the Christianity, Jesus came, he died for our sins. The Holy Ghost is there so that you have direct connection to God and that you don't have to do all of the things that they had to do in the Old Testament to seek God. Now you have this direct relationship. You're able to go to him directly. Right? So I don't know if all of those other things are there now when it comes to how you're living your life. And if you're worthy of accessing God, that's different. But I do think that we are able
Emanuel (04:23)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (04:27)
to have a direct relationship with God and talk to him directly. Yeah, yeah.
Emanuel (04:32)
tomato tomorrow because there's some people who don't, know what saying? And like, I'm not, I'm, and.
Roberta (04:33)
you
Emanuel (04:37)
I'm just like a person like I've never pushed back on what somebody believes. You know what saying? I'm like, that's what you believe? That's great. There are people which is like, you know what? But I got to do a whole bunch of stuff to call the Holy Spirit down here. You know what saying? Like I just can't go and like, you know, set out a candle and a glass of water and like pray and then like Holy Spirit knocking on my door like, hey girl, what's up? You know, like, so like my point is like due to Christianity's indoctrination, like there have been placed a lot of like barriers, be they ritualistic or whatever, ⁓ between like, you know, the person and God.
Sonia (04:40)
That's true. Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (05:06)
Where ancestors come in is that ancestors tend to play the intermediary or intercessory role for black people, for people who honor their ancestors.
It also is a way to ground yourself like spiritually. And then there's also a way to like honor the traditions that we were forced to walk away from. So whether you're like, you know, you're Afro-Caribbean or you're in South America or you are African or Pacific, you know, Islander or whatever, a lot of colonized communities have maintained some type of ancestral practice.
Sonia (05:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (05:47)
they fuse it into Christianity or to keep it separate. But I personally feel like as a person of color and a person who's from a line of enslaved people, there ain't nothing no religion could make me do to just like pretend my ancestors don't exist.
Sonia (06:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Roberta (06:04)
Thank
Sonia (06:05)
What about you, Roberta?
Roberta (06:07)
I agree with pretty much everything Emanuel just said. I think my relationship is with just, I'll just say spirit before I get into specifically ancestor, right? Well, let me just say the different from my perspective of the difference between the two, think.
All souls exist, you know, the four of us are here now, we're spirits, but we're in physical, you know, human form. I feel like once you transition, you know, from out of human form, your spirit is still around and exists, it's still here.
think the difference between what I kind of see that versus an ancestor, I would say ancestor is part of our soul network. I believe personally that we all have networks of souls, that we all travel together at all times. And sometimes we're in human form at the same time, sometimes we're not. But we're all connected. I feel like the four of us are connected spiritually, so on a soul level.
And for ancestors and for, I'll just say specifically familial connections, right? There's a kind of a tighter circle of those soul connections. It's not a, and I think some people use this term, ancestors, honoring your ancestors, and some people I think misconstrue it for worship and put ancestors as a deity or something. don't.
Sonia (07:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (07:26)
believe in that. I don't believe in that just in general, like that one spirit has more weight or importance than another. I just don't. I think there's more that kind of know my soul and my spirit better than others. And so they may have advice or, you know, protection maybe for my spirit more so than another.
but I also don't believe that not every ancestor or spirit is in a place to be protecting or guiding me. Not all spiritual energy is light and airy and there's some that are still weighted. there's still just some, and I had actually a medium tell me years ago, because I asked, who are my spirit guides? Who are the people that surround me? And my father is one.
Sonia (08:01)
So it's a darkness.
Roberta (08:13)
primarily
in times of my emotional emergencies, if you will. But there's things that he's still atoning for, specifically with my mother. until she gets to the point where she transitions and they have an opportunity, he has an opportunity to atone for whatever those things were. And I got some insight into those things.
then he has some weight to him, to his spirit. And so I take all of these things into consideration again, and like how I incorporate my spirituality, it's more on a day-to-day, moving day-to-day decision level, is I don't...
Sonia (08:36)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (08:53)
I don't take things so seriously, you know what mean? As far as life and death, especially compared to what I used to be. I used to be terrified of death. I'm still a little scared of dying, you know? I'm still kind of scared of like my body, you know, what that process will be for my physical form and my body. But as far as what happens to my spirit and my soul beyond that physical death.
Sonia (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (09:17)
So I ain't worried about that. I'm actually looking forward to it. So it's very different, I think. And when I have these conversations with Christians, of all the religions and the people who have religions that I talk to and share my beliefs with, it's the Christians that are the least understanding of where I'm coming from, which is weird to me, but I kind of get it. I don't know.
Sonia (09:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Roberta (09:41)
to answer your question, yeah, I do have a place for spirit, you know, I do have a place for ancestor. I personally think that just the term ancestor has has in the last I don't know, five, 10, 15 years gotten a trendy more so than I think it should. it's good and tracking and let me just say in the wrong direction.
Emanuel (10:00)
What direction is it?
Roberta (10:02)
I think people are kind of using it again to kind substitute a deity.
Sonia (10:07)
Hmm.
Emanuel (10:07)
Well, I mean, you know, know Yadira has a really good answer to this, but I will say like, in some traditions, the collective ancestry is treated like a deity and like they're respected for like that knowledge and experience and the fact that they are closer to.
Sonia (10:11)
you
Emanuel (10:20)
Knowing our destiny then we are so like in some cases at some practices that is the case and I feel like We all have to do our internal work work in terms of like how we one if that relates to us because if it doesn't you know in a big deal but then to this is like what about that is uncomfortable to you and like is it is is that something based on your own personal experience or something you picked up from my other religions or like other people and I'm not saying like
Roberta (10:32)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (10:38)
Mm.
Roberta (10:39)
Hmm.
Emanuel (10:46)
you know, either one of those examples fit you, but those are the type of questions or the type of wrestling that I've had to do, you know what saying, with myself and genuinely just being like, why do I feel like this is bad? And I've come to learn that like in terms of being a Hoodoo practitioner and like knowing people who practice other African religions, like your ancestors might answer your prayers before God will.
Sonia (10:52)
Yeah.
Roberta (11:08)
Hmm. And let me be clear, I don't think it's wrong for people to honor ancestors or to do any of that. I think it's wrong when people jump on a trend or do something because they heard something sounds like the right way to go versus chasing it through for themselves.
Emanuel (11:22)
Yeah.
Sonia (11:25)
Yadira, you've been quiet.
Yadira (11:27)
I
have, I was letting my flow speak.
Roberta (11:29)
You
Emanuel (11:30)
She's stewing,
she ready to cook over there. Mm-hmm.
Sonia (11:31)
She processing.
Yadira (11:33)
Yeah,
I think part of why I have become more open to ancestors and people that have transitioned is because of my age, right? And I think it might have something to do with our generation. The more that you see people transition over and the more experiences you have to understand that you're not disconnected just because they died.
then the more that opens up your mind, wait a minute, there's something there. I cannot deny the experiences that I have had, right, on a personal level. So I think that that has helped me understand that there is a role, that these folks are still part of my life and that many times they still wanna communicate, you know? And I was raised to be fearful of that. I am no longer fearful of that.
Sonia (12:00)
you
Yadira (12:18)
in my spiritual seeking and seeking those answers that we want, I have learned so much about my own soul and in the transitions that it has done. I've done, you know, like meditations for past life regressions. And I have seen, like Roberta mentioned, how I've been connected to some of my family members, not only in this lifetime, but in past lifetimes to the point where one time I told my dad, when I see you in heaven,
I'm gonna hop over whoever's sitting in between us and I'm gonna come and sit next to you." And he's like, you're gonna see me. How you know you're gonna end up in heaven and you're gonna see me? like, ⁓ I'm gonna... Remember, they're Pentecostal, so they think they're the only ones that are right, okay? So I said, I'm gonna see you there and I'm gonna sit next to you because I will know that soul no matter where it is.
Emanuel (12:53)
You
Roberta (12:54)
you
Sonia (12:54)
Nah.
Dang, Dad. He said, you won't see me there. Okay.
Emanuel (12:58)
Damn, you little faith.
You right.
Roberta (13:12)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (13:12)
Mmm.
Yadira (13:12)
And I feel like with my sister, the same thing, I have been around this and I do tell her now, I'm very open about it. I've been like, in this lifetime, I'm not gonna do that. Maybe in the next one, you know, but I am open about that because I am well spiritually connected. And some people that are transitioning wanna connect with me, I don't know why, especially mothers when they want to communicate with their children here, I do not know why this happens, but very often.
Emanuel (13:12)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (13:22)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (13:22)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (13:32)
Hmm.
Sonia (13:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yadira (13:41)
They come to me for that.
Roberta (13:43)
Hmm.
Emanuel (13:43)
Hmm.
Sonia (13:44)
is that? So, Sonia being the infant of the three and having the most, because I do have the most questions. mean, I do think there are, with spirituality, spirituality that God can be seen in many ways, right? He is in nature. He is, and to be honest, I feel the closest to God when I'm outside. When I am in nature, when I can, there is no...
Roberta (14:01)
Mm-hmm
Sonia (14:10)
beauty, there's no color that is replicated in nature by man. And so to me, I just feel like it is a, I just feel closer to God when I am outside, when I'm connected to earth and trees and seeing the beauty of what is around me, right? And the magnificent of this earth that we live on.
But it is a lot and I do realize that I have work to do to, like you said, Emanuel, like logically, I do understand what has happened with colonization and how Christianity was introduced to us from a logical standpoint. But I don't think that I have.
really process that in a spiritual level. Like what does that mean for me spiritually? And what does it mean to unpack something that I have spent most of my life being around and not even in a negative way, right? What does it mean to unpack that and develop something new? And how do I start that? And how do I go through the motions of trying to rectify that and come to a
where I feel comfortable because I will say, having you guys talk about spirits and the spiritual realm, it does sound, it sounds great, it sounds beautiful. It sounds like something that is, like how could that be bad? But there's also a part of me that when I think back to how I was taught, that is like, that is bad, that's the devil.
Roberta (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (15:42)
you know, trying to confuse you and you know, those voices are still there, even though I know that there is more to this spirituality thing than what is in a book or than what we've been taught.
Roberta (15:44)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (15:55)
Because even the teachings of Jesus don't really align with the way Christians present themselves today, right? And just being an adult and just having lived, just, to me, I just have more compassion. I have more understanding. I have the belief that God made everybody. And so regardless of how they present themselves, they are worthy to be loved. They are worthy to be here. And they are, they should have everything that I have and more, right? Like everybody should have,
equal to the same thing. so building, want to build on that to say, okay, well, where do I stand spiritually and find that place of comfort that I can rest in and be secure in.
Emanuel (16:37)
But I feel like it starts with asking those questions, ⁓ but not being tied to what the answer looks like or what the answer is. And I feel like that's what I've learned from leaning more into.
Sonia (16:40)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (16:45)
Hmm.
Sonia (16:46)
Yeah.
Emanuel (16:50)
my spirituality, know, transitioning out of organized religion because people in church, like they will tell you like, it's a very like, confined, concise script for how God.
Is and behaves like they'll tell you on one hand God is the whole universe and knew the number of your hairs on your head before you was even born But it'd be like but he's only a man. He's only a he. You can only see him here you do So it's just like I feel like Going back to earlier point of like, you know the the personal side of religion like that's just
Roberta (17:10)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (17:23)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (17:25)
That's when you just have to, and it's great to be aware that you have those questions, but then you just also just have to like not be attached to like what the answers look like, because the answer could literally like rock your world. You know what saying? Like you like, you don't know, but it's like, that's for the best. And I also feel like that's why we all, and I have, we all need to ask ourselves like, and like question like the macro,
Roberta (17:37)
You
Sonia (17:37)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (17:50)
pillars that have like shaped like not just what we believe in like but like how we believe like going to our earlier point or discussion about ancestors like I literally had to sit down one day and just be like
Sonia (17:56)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (18:04)
Why did the colonizers need to try to convince us that our ancestors were demons? Because that's not a belief we had before we met them. Like, there's like no proof for that whatsoever. But now, why is it that our ancestors, and specifically Black ancestors,
Roberta (18:13)
Mm-hmm.
Hm.
Sonia (18:21)
Do
white people have ancestors, don't they? They just don't. ⁓ yeah. ⁓
Emanuel (18:24)
Yeah, because they're alive they have ancestors but they don't
like honor them and look to them like for spiritual guidance And I have an example of that because you know on the side. I'm like, you know a medium I'm like reading people helping people spiritually listen, but um one day I was giving a intro to terror class because like
Roberta (18:28)
Right.
Hmm. ⁓
Emanuel (18:43)
but also know multiple forms of divination. And it had a very diverse class. had about 10 people. had men, women, black, white, Asian, tall, short-skinned, whatever. ⁓ I'm going through my manual talking about like, you know, not everyone reads tarot the same. Some people connect with different types of spirits. Be they spirits of nature, angels, ancestors, whatever. And this white woman just like jerks up. She's just like...
I'm not asking my ancestors for anything. They weren't shit when they were alive and they're probably not shit in death.
Sonia (19:15)
Wow. Well,
if I had ancestors like that, I wouldn't be like, hey ancestors.
Roberta (19:24)
That
Emanuel (19:24)
So that
Roberta (19:24)
is funny to me.
Yadira (19:25)
But I mean,
that's a good point because from what we know of history, and I've contended with that being of mixed heritage, right? I know that I have white ancestry and I do not often connect with those nor do I seek those out. I already know what they did. know they did. Now.
Emanuel (19:40)
Mm-hmm. And I... Right. And I respect
Sonia (19:40)
stay over there.
Roberta (19:42)
So.
Sonia (19:43)
Yeah.
Emanuel (19:44)
that.
I respect that.
Yadira (19:44)
Now there's
one, I gotta say there's one that's shown up to me in my dreams and I think that I need to do more digging and even asking about him in particular because I can tell that he presents himself to help healing, to help for healing. And I have to understand what that means.
Emanuel (20:00)
Yeah.
Sonia (20:03)
Okay, I have to understand what it means for you guys to have these spiritual experiences. Like you all have talked about, mentioned, when I have this spiritual experience, when I do this, you know, what is that? Describe to me, if you don't mind sharing, if it's not super, something you wanna hold close, like, A, what you would describe as a spiritual experience.
Roberta (20:09)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (20:29)
Yeah, dear, you wanna know? Or better, you wanna know?
Roberta (20:30)
I have two different types of spiritual experiences. One came by way of a medium and...
Yadira (20:30)
November, right? ⁓
Roberta (20:42)
It really shifted me. mean, I knew what medium, you their roles and I believe that, you know, okay, potentially this could be a thing. Like they could communicate. It wasn't until Andrew passed that I solidified, this is real. So she gave me a specific message that there was no way that anyone like, so I'll tell you what exactly what it is, what it was. So he was in hospice. I was not with him in hospice when he actually passed.
His parents were with him during COVID, so only two people would go at a time. His parents were with him. They called me and was like, he's officially, you know, he's gone, he's transitioned. I called her immediately. She did tell me, I mean, she knew he was going to pass. And she said, call me when it happens. And so I did. She said two things to me. She was like,
He wants you to keep wearing the necklace. actually before I called her, he coming out of hospice, I took all of his belongings, which included his jewelry, which is a necklace that he wore every single day of his life. When he, when his father called me and said he had passed, I literally, I got up and I went to got the necklace and I put it on. Then I called her.
And she said, he wants you to keep wearing that necklace. He wants you to keep it. And if anybody asks for it, don't give it to them. He wants you to keep that necklace. And I'm like, how the hell does she know that I had on this necklace and like anything about this whole thing? So that was one piece. And then she was like, do you, did you guys have a dog? And I'm like, no, we didn't have a pet. She was like, I don't know what this means, but he was like, he wants you to keep the dog. And then I had to think about it. And there was a stuffed animal that in the hospital from hospital to hospice.
they gave him because he kept pulling at his tubes and the things and everything that was attached to him. The nurses gave him this little stuffed animal dog to distract him so he would stop pulling out everything. And so when they moved him from hospital to hospice, I took the dog, you know, with him and I propped it up kind of on top of his bed, kind of like his guard dog or whatever. And I would talk to him about the guard dog. We named it and the whole thing while he was in hospice. And she told me that he wanted me to keep the dog. And so there was just very specific things.
that happened that only, know what mean? that she, and she was, she didn't know him personally. She barely knew me personally. She was a friend of a friend. She's in North Carolina. We're in like Maryland. There's certain, there was such detail that she gave me and other specific things. Those are just two examples of what she told me in that conversation. There's other things that there's no way that like, you know what I mean? Unless that came directly from him. And
That just made me, it gave me, it felt very relieved that he wasn't actually gone, you know, he's still here. Made me little freaked out. I'm like, well shit, can he see me doing everything right now? But that was a very spiritual thing. I mean, well.
Sonia (23:14)
Mm-hmm
well.
I was say, we know about your house Roberta.
Roberta (23:28)
But that was a very spiritual thing. That's one thing, that's one example. The other example I have of my personal experiences is that I get what I call, which I learned other people call, downloads. And it's very quick snippets of information that I just receive. And it honestly takes me and my human brain.
Sonia (23:36)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (23:45)
time to parse out what exactly the message is and what I'm supposed to take away from it. But it comes to me and when I tell you it's so different than anything, any knowledge that I've accumulated or received any other way, it's a knowing. It's not even a question form. It's not even a like, I wonder what that, no, it's a knowing. And it's very strong. And it's usually accompanied by this overwhelming feeling of like joy.
Sonia (24:00)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (24:12)
of like just like boundless love and joy and support and just being wrapped and it comes like usually I know that it's coming on because I get that feeling and the only thing that my physical body knows to do is just weep and then I get the information and then it's done and this all this happens in a matter of seconds and I've had that happen enough times in my life
that I just know that that is a spiritual experience for me. And also I've leaned into it enough and reached out to other people and learned that other people have very, very similar experiences, that I'm like, has to be something there. Those are my two personal spiritual experiences.
Sonia (25:00)
Who else wants to share?
Emanuel (25:01)
Hmm
Yadira (25:02)
I can share. I've had many, so I'm gonna pick kind of like how they happened. One of the simplest ways that I think Christians can understand is when you receive a prophetic word at the church, ⁓ that knowing that Roberta is talking about, I feel exactly like that. It can either be a message or my presence or a hug or somebody needs something. Somebody needs to be remembered in this moment and I'm the one that has to text, I'm the one that has to make sure I reach out, that.
Sonia (25:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Yadira (25:33)
Right? And it might be somebody that I haven't spoken to in years
and they give me the confirmation, my God, you don't understand how much I needed this at this moment. Right? So that's one way. Two, I am a person that typically does not remember her dreams. So the times that I have dreamt with ancestors in particular, they're very vivid. I know what they look like. I know their skin tone. I know their height. I know their age. Like all of that from a dream.
that I typically don't remember dreams, but these stories I do remember clearly. So that's another way. And then the third way is kind of like when you're meditating and you're hearing your thoughts and you're wondering, that me? Is that? I know that that's not me.
Sonia (26:12)
Mm-hmm.
I'm about say I always know that ain't me. Yeah. Yeah.
Yadira (26:18)
Well, see, exactly. So you have that too. To me,
it's like I had one uncle pass away in COVID and we used to be like tight at a point in our lives. And I was very sad that I couldn't see him or that I had been so far away from him. And I was crying. Nobody else knew I'm here in my bed and I'm not trying to disturb Elvin, you know. And he comes visits and he says, do not cry for me. And he said what he used to call me. That's not my name.
Right? So I'm like, okay, that's him. And he sees my sadness over him and he doesn't want me to agonize over that. Right? So I think that those are the ways that I've been able to have those exchanges. and the last one, this is pretty interesting because I never met this person. Elvin's brother who passed away way before we met, he came and spoke to me and I asked, because it was a message for Elvin. He wanted me to talk to Elvin about something.
I asked, how's he gonna know that it's, would I know that it's you? Like, how would he know? Because we never met, like, why would I be sharing this information? And he told me, tell a mom the triangle. Tell him I'm the triangle. And I was like, okay, that made no sense whatsoever to me. But when I told Elvin that, he knew exactly why he would say that. Because he's like, my brother used to always call me the square. And I was like, how else, how would I know? How could my brain make that up?
Roberta (27:38)
Mm-hmm
Sonia (27:39)
Hmm.
Roberta (27:45)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (27:46)
Interesting. Emanuel, I know you got some stories. Some examples.
Emanuel (27:48)
That's great.
Yeah, in like different capacities too. Like
I'm a big dreamer. And as I just started to like...
accept this path that I've been put on. I used to feel so insecure because I bought into a bunch of westernized views of what being spiritual is, what it looks like, and all the lingo or terminology and stuff. And my experience didn't fit that. I wasn't going around saying, I'm clairaudient and Clair Huxtable and clairvoyant and I'm a medium. I just never felt like
Roberta (28:26)
you
Emanuel (28:29)
like that fit me, the whole time, like I'm literally having dreams about coworkers, you know what saying? Like, and like seeing them in like prophetic situations and having dreams about relatives and...
Sonia (28:30)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (28:42)
seeing their children before they were born and One day when I was kind of like, okay, this is like this is kind of it. This is my life now I was on the bus in Chicago heading home from work taking a number three and this woman is just like watch staring me on the bus like like did not like look away and I'm just looking at my phone.
but she just would not stop staring at me. So I'm thinking she's reading my t-shirt or something, or maybe I look like someone she knows. So eventually, she's just like, excuse me, excuse me. And I was just like, OK. Yes? And she was just like, do you interpret dreams?
Roberta (29:13)
Hmm?
Emanuel (29:18)
And I just kind of gasped because like over the past years I had just been interpreting my own and I never interpreted anybody else's. I wasn't even telling people that I was having all these prophetic and vivid like dreams. And all I knew was the best way I can explain it is like I just felt like there were like a hundred people behind me looking at me seeing what I was going to say and what I was going to do. And I knew I had to say yes. And I was just like, yeah, I do.
Roberta (29:35)
Hmm.
Hmm?
Emanuel (29:46)
And she was like, I knew it. Can I tell you about a dream I had? So at this point, people on the bus are just kind of turning around, like, you know, like what's happening? And she literally.
Yadira (29:54)
Do head, Joseph.
Emanuel (29:56)
I know right right and she literally tells me her dream and I instantly knew what her dream was about and she was like my god like that has been like driving me that has literally been stressing me all day and she's like thank you so much and my bus literally just like pulls up to my stop and i'm just like you're welcome and i get off the bus and i was just like okay this is like this is this is real so my ex
Sonia (30:17)
Yeah, that's pretty undeniable.
That's like a pretty clear.
Emanuel (30:20)
It's undeniable
and it also for me like it colors my connection to being a spiritual person because I have been thrust into spiritual service.
Sonia (30:28)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (30:31)
Like from like I mean like now I just kind of know it, you know I was kind of on the outside looking in but like That woman she needed help. She asked me a question. I gave her an answer She's not the only stranger who stopped me on the street and it's just like I asked you a question now like, you know, i've been readings for the public since like 2017 And I have my own clientele where people come to give readings and come to help and even in that context I have spiritual experiences of like, you know, the answers come through they tell
me certain things. They tell me to pass on messages for like, you know, the clients family. They give me tips on how to spiritually like remedy some of the things that like clients are dealing with. So my majority of my experiences are absolutely in the context of being like in spiritual service to other people. And I take that role very seriously.
Sonia (31:21)
So
I have a question because I'm like, am I not just in tune enough? Am I not quiet enough? Do I not, and am I not tapped in enough? Do you feel like everybody has the capacity to have these spiritual experiences?
Roberta (31:30)
Hmm.
Sonia (31:39)
And it doesn't have to be as strong or as direct as what you and Yadira just said. Roberta, say you went to a person to experience these and then you gave an example of where you also feel like you have these downloads. Do you feel like everybody has the capacity to do that? And if so, what is keeping somebody, what is that barrier that is keeping them from being able to experience that?
Emanuel (32:06)
feel like everyone has the capacity, but everyone doesn't have the need. ⁓ And that's just me saying that now it's just like someone who spiritually serves his community. Like all of us have the capacity to learn how to like mend a broken bone, but do we need to? No, there may be some people who absolutely need to fulfill that role because that's a part of their destiny. Like that's like, that's what they signed up in this lifetime to do. And I feel like
Roberta (32:10)
Mm.
You
Sonia (32:28)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (32:32)
what thanks to the social mediation of like religion and spirituality, it's just like everybody's a spiritual guru and you get it downloaded, you can download it, you can just use it. And it's just like, like even back in the day, you know what I'm saying? Before there was social media, like everybody want a healer, you know, like everybody want laying hands, you know what I'm saying? Like everybody want blessing homes, everybody want birth and babies, everybody, you know what I'm saying? So like, I feel like we, because of social media and like what Roberta said,
Sonia (32:36)
Right.
Roberta (32:40)
Hmm.
Sonia (32:41)
I definitely do not feel like that.
Right.
Emanuel (33:02)
earlier because like things have just become like very trendified. It makes it seem like everyone is supposed to play this like spiritual, mystical, mystical role. And specifically in the context of like service, that's how I kind of look at things like everybody is not a healer. And in this lifetime, I'm telling you the people who are out here, spiritual healing people, they will tell you in a heartbeat, if I could have not done this, I would have, I would have turned, you know, the calling
Sonia (33:07)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
if
Roberta (33:28)
Thank
Emanuel (33:32)
down because it is an obligation. It is legit a job. It's a pact that you make to whoever is guiding your healing journey or healing practice. But I would say for the people who need to employ some level of spirituality because they are healers in this lifetime, yeah, they have that skill and they need to do it. But everyone has the capability, but everybody
don't have any.
Roberta (34:00)
I agree
with that, but I'll also say that I don't think...
that type of connection to spirituality, it doesn't have to be of service, right? You could have the capacity and it could be just for your own personal whatever, like your spirit guides or whatever you wanna call, like could be communicating just to help you or protect you. Like it doesn't have to be, and that's one frustrating thing of like when I was with my ex, with Michael, and I was telling him about these downloads, right? And I would just be sharing. He was like, you need to lean into that. You know, could help other people. And I was just like, I don't.
Emanuel (34:16)
Yep.
Yep.
Sonia (34:26)
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (34:32)
To me, that was exploiting. It just didn't seem right. As soon as he said it, was just like, ugh, that just doesn't feel good to me.
Sonia (34:35)
Yeah.
Emanuel (34:39)
But I feel
like that's because it was your download, not anybody else's. You know what saying? Like if the download was like for you to pass on a message, then yeah, you know.
Roberta (34:42)
Right, and...
Sonia (34:43)
Okay.
Roberta (34:47)
Right. And I've actually received
like...
certain downloads or whatever you want to call it of like, don't share, bitch, like this is for you. Like don't, and not even share it as like, this is an example. Like no, this is for you because I feel like the thing that I had to parse out or thing that I did parse out was that if I did share this particular piece of information, it would offset something in a weird way that didn't need to be offset. So I say that to say that I think that we, and it probably is a part of just my
Emanuel (34:56)
Yep, yep. That's real.
Sonia (34:59)
Bye.
Mm-hmm.
Roberta (35:19)
belief system in the fact that I think we're all energy and we're all spirits and we're all here on the same plane we just can't register at all the same way that I think we all do have the capacity it's just I think part of it is yeah part of it is not a need a part of it you know you'll receive it whenever you need to get it if you need to get it a part of it is I do think and the one thing that I've noticed about my personal experiences is that I only
Emanuel (35:38)
Yep.
Roberta (35:46)
have the capacity, I guess, when I'm still and when I'm really practicing my meditation and when I'm really centering myself and not caught up in the spin of everything. Like I haven't had a quote unquote download in probably like a year because I've been just maybe not a year, but like I haven't been still enough, you know? And so I think all of, even that I think is by design because I, you know, it's not my time, it's not my place to.
Sonia (36:05)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (36:13)
you
Yadira (36:14)
I agree with everyone has the capacity. And I'm gonna say, because I felt like a spiritual orphan when I decided not to go back to the church, I took it upon myself to foster my spiritual connection. And I feel like that's where most of these experiences came about, right? So I think anyone that has the curiosity or feels that kind of inkling or, know.
they can lean into that. And like Roberta says, it was through meditation. It was through quieting your mind and trying to connect. Not like I'm trying to connect to the spirit out here. No, like just trying to center And silence everything else, right? Like having that moment for yourself. And I think that that's how I started.
Roberta (36:48)
Right.
Sonia (36:50)
Yeah. Where are you?
Emanuel (36:51)
You
Sonia (36:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yadira (37:01)
being even more connected and feeling like I could hear and be more perceptive. So I would say if you're curious, if this is something that is a question in your mind, then you definitely have the capability to have those kinds of spiritual connections.
Sonia (37:05)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah, and I do. Like, I think I agree with you. When I am quiet, when I am contemplative, like quiet, like going within myself, right? And just...
not even expecting anything, but just coming with it. There's just this knowing. Like sometimes you don't even have to express that there is something either bothering you or that you need to work out. Just sitting quietly and praying or talking to God. Like it is to me most clear when I am still, right? When I am still and I'm not trying to solve. Cause I'm a solver. ⁓
Roberta (37:56)
You're a thinker.
Sonia (37:59)
I am
a thinker and that is, it is important for me to turn off my brain and just be, right? And not try to process. And even you probably have noticed in this conversation, I'm like, no, explain that to me. Now why? Because I'm trying to make sense of it. And so I do think that, you know, to me, I feel closest when I am, when I am quiet,
Roberta (38:13)
Mmm.
Sonia (38:22)
It's always like super emotional, but then you walk away feeling cleansed and you feel better, right, So I guess those would be my spiritual connections, even though I'm not seeing my ancestors.
So I have put on my reading glasses because I have some Bible verses sent to me that really are.
topical to what we're discussing today. So based on everything that we talked about, and we talked about a lot of different things, when you hear, and I'll just read a couple. I'll read first Deuteronomy 18 verses 10 through 12. This is the NIV version. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire.
who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft or casts spells, or who is a medium or a spiritualist who consults with the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. Dang, detestable.
Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 5, for the living know they will die but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward and even their name is forgotten. Now I want to keep reading. John 14 6, Jesus answered, I am the way the truth and the life.
and no one comes to me to the Father except through me." And then Exodus chapter 40 verse 9, taking the anointing oil, anoint the tabernacle and everything in it, consecrate it and all its furnishings and it will be holy. my coworker and I were talking about rituals, right? And I was like, well, Christianity has rituals.
Like too, like we were talking about Hoodoo and Christianity. And I was like, you know, obviously the biggest one is taking communion. There are others speaking in tongue. There is blessed oil or anointing oil that people use. Like how is that, how are those things different or how do you see those as different? And then the last one she has here is Psalms 23 and five. You anoint my head with oil and my cup overflows. So.
To me, obviously those are all from the Bible. I guess the thing that I find interesting about Bible verses is, singular Bible verses, is that there is no context. What was the rest of the story? What else was happening and who wrote it? And that's why I want to read it, because I'm just like, well who are these people who wrote the Bible?
Roberta (40:50)
What motivated that assessment? Right. See, that's why.
Sonia (41:02)
And who chose their writings and who, and I'm sure they wrote more than what's present in the Bible. Who picked these writings? And this is where I feel like a lot of pastors fall down if they haven't studied the Bible. Like if they haven't.
like studied in the educational system or had some, at least some historical right teachings about where the Bible comes from. Because those are the kind of questions I have. Well, if God himself didn't, I mean, and he was certainly capable of doing that. He's sitting down the 10 commandments. Where's the rest of the Bible? And so that was my first.
Yadira (41:24)
or religions overall.
Sonia (41:44)
thought is like, what is the context of these? And then there's like Old Testament versus New Testament, you know, and if I... You wildin'.
Emanuel (41:52)
It might be a download, answer it.
Sonia (41:54)
You
Roberta (41:54)
My bad.
Sonia (41:58)
Hey
you guys, alright go. Who wants to go? Go next. How do y'all, how do you see those?
Emanuel (42:06)
Honestly, I just kind of tell people that like in America we have a such thing as a religious freedom So by law people are protected and can believe and practice whatever religion they want to and then second your religion is your religion
So like anytime you feel like you got to tell me how astro act based on your religion, you kind of missing a point player. You don't say like your religion is your religion in terms of like cherry picking, you know what saying? I like nitpicking certain things out of the Bible. Like you could turn a couple of pages and read a story about how Solomon had to consult.
Sonia (42:26)
Yeah.
Emanuel (42:39)
a prophet of the dead to like learn something that like, you know, none of his other prophets could tell him, you know what I'm saying? So like, in terms of the like, you find what you go looking for, but I'm with you, like context is important. And with something like the Bible, like we don't just need general context, we need historical context. We need social context. We need like gender role context. We need economic. Like it's just like so much that I feel like is.
Sonia (42:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emanuel (43:06)
purposefully overlooked and just to bring it back full circle like that type of behavior or that type of relationship where religion has turned a lot of people off which is why like a lot of this Bible thumping today like it don't have the same effect that it did back in the day.
Sonia (43:08)
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Yadira (43:22)
I'm gonna say I agree with the historical context. To me, it is so important to understand that context, especially when we're reading the Old Testament, because that's the whole point as Christians. Jesus came to undo a lot of that stuff. So why do we want to put a lot of that old stuff pre-Jesus on people today? This is why I'm a red-letter Christian, because I wanna hear the words of Jesus to me have more weight than who wrote it, what was their...
Sonia (43:32)
Yeah.
Yadira (43:51)
agenda, their perception, their gender, the cultural norms back in the times. So, you I think that there's a difference with that. And then when it comes to the dead and rituals, let's say, we just celebrated Easter. Jesus died. There were rituals around his body, right? And when he resurrected, he was walking among us and he was talking to people. So why would we say, well, that
Sonia (44:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yadira (44:20)
DEAD PERSON.
Sonia (44:21)
That's
a singular experience and no other experiences exist after that. Yeah.
Yadira (44:23)
same.
My critical
thinking brain has an issue with that.
Sonia (44:30)
Mm-hmm. Roberta? I see that eyebrow. It's up.
Roberta (44:35)
No, I mean, I
agree. Like, think it's, well, don't get me started on the actual Bible and Jesus. I agree. I don't think you can pick and choose. think, I mean, but I don't, I personally don't believe any of that anyway. I don't know how we want to get into that, but.
Sonia (44:50)
You don't believe any of what? The Bible? That it happened or you don't put any...
Yadira (44:52)
Bible.
Roberta (44:53)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
I think, well, let me just say it flatly what I think. I think Christianity started as a cult. I think it was, yeah, very fanatical, very cultish. it just, yeah, mean, mm. I mean, and I believe, you know, Jesus was a man, lived a long time ago, did some things.
Emanuel (45:08)
Some people do believe that.
Sonia (45:16)
Like,
none.
Roberta (45:17)
don't necessarily think that it was too much different than like, you know what mean? Like other human thought processes of things of how we should move through the world and be and act and live. I think it was how, you know, it came to be of the whole Bible and all the things that came from that. I think a lot of, probably more influence from man and men since his time than his actual existence and what he accomplished during his life.
Sonia (45:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So, obviously I believe that Jesus was here, died, for our sins. I believe that when it comes to, and so I can appreciate what Yadira is saying about, what did Jesus say? Because honestly that's what I would like to look at too. Because if that is the example, I want to go by what he's.
Emanuel (46:02)
Yeah.
Sonia (46:09)
telling us to do, because them other people, I literally don't know them, but also I don't know them people. Were they humans just like us? Because if so, ⁓ my goodness, yeah.
Roberta (46:18)
What's I'm saying, like all these people, like I,
we're human. Do we have anything to say otherwise? Other than the book that they wrote?
Sonia (46:24)
Right, right. I mean, I don't, I mean, we probably, to
scholars, we probably sound real like y'all know nothing and we don't. We do not know anything. Please don't take our podcast mics away. But we are having discussions. We are having a discussion.
Roberta (46:31)
Right, like I'm right, I'm sure.
you
Emanuel (46:40)
But these aren't
the discussions that everyone is having. And unfortunately, they're not getting answers. Like you do have some churches and some pastors who refuse to have these types of discussions with people. Like, man, I saw a documentary I watched a while ago. Can I remember the name? I said it to y'all, but it basically like a whole documentary was about how young people, black people.
Sonia (46:44)
Yeah.
Roberta (46:51)
Yeah.
Sonia (46:51)
Yeah.
Emanuel (47:02)
had questions about religion, had questions about Christianity. So you know, they have a question about something, you gotta be paying attention to it. You know what saying? Like there's something in you that is invested in it, but they just couldn't get answers. And they had really good questions. You know what I'm saying? So I feel like we have kind of been talking around this whole idea of like control and how organized religion just kind of like, basically it's built on control and forcing people to believe certain things in a certain way. And a lot of people like they're pushing
Sonia (47:05)
Yeah.
Roberta (47:10)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (47:13)
Yeah.
Roberta (47:14)
Right. Right.
Sonia (47:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (47:31)
back on that control and aspect of it.
Sonia (47:33)
Yeah, think there's a...
Roberta (47:33)
Yeah.
Yadira (47:34)
I think if
you, for me, it was very clear when I had the realization that, A, Christianity was here before colonization. Like we, black people in Africa in the Middle East were practicing Christianity, right? What Jesus left us before Christianity was used to control as a tool.
Sonia (47:56)
as a term, well before it was even called Christianity.
Yadira (48:00)
Right, as a tool because
Sonia (48:01)
It was, yeah.
Yadira (48:02)
it was the priest that enslaved the first people. So when I realized there was a relationship with the creator, there was knowledge of Jesus way before it was in my eyes, bastardized and used for evil. Then that in my spirit said, okay, then let's go back and then learn.
what Jesus intended, what God intended way before humans meddled with it.
Sonia (48:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emanuel (48:32)
There's a little more truth to that though, because I agree. And I used to have a cousin of mine, was just like, well Christianity existed in Egypt, duh duh duh duh duh. I'm proud to be a Christian. And I'm just like, hey baby, our ancestors are from Western and Central Africa. And Christianity was brought to them. You're thinking about Ethiopians, and your ass is not Ethiopian. You know what saying? So for one, Africa's huge. Africa's huge.
Roberta (48:53)
Pfft!
Sonia (48:57)
That is huge.
The hugest. Well, second, second, second largest. Okay. That's your new there.
Emanuel (48:59)
like the hugest, the largest, you know what I'm saying? Like what second, you know what I'm saying? like, you know, so in
terms of like religious practice and spiritualities, voodoo got a good 10, 12,000 years on top of Christianity. There are like other religions that like dwarf Christianity in terms of being like the oldest. So how I look at it is like,
I could, yeah, if I'm black and I want to be a Christian, that's cool. But also if I'm black and I want to go back to like my spiritual heritage, which is like religions or practices of my ancestors practice long before they were forced into Christianity, I have the right to, I also have the right to fuse it to, to combine it to, you know what saying? If I want to. So I just wanted to share that quickly, you know, because like Christianity is like what, 2200 years old. There are religions out here, people are still practicing today that are like...
Sonia (49:40)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (49:50)
15,000 years old.
Sonia (49:52)
I feel like you're that Chinese person who was like, all right United States, y'all been around for 200 years. We've been here for thousands of years and we'll continue to be here. dang.
Roberta (49:57)
Yeah.
Emanuel (49:59)
Exactly right. You only been here for 200 years. What's up? Yeah, that's right. Yeah
Roberta (50:01)
Right.
Yadira (50:03)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (50:05)
I think that when it comes to, like, you know, my coworker well-meaning was on her heart to send these things to me. But, you know, I think that one of the things that makes me, you know, hesitant about...
Christianity is because, you know, there is so much focus on, you know, what comes after or the life that Jesus, God has waiting for us after that, you know, reminds me of that quote, you're so heavily minded that you're no earthly good. I feel like that is what happens and that is why.
Emanuel (50:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sonia (50:45)
Christianity is, or religion in general, well, no, I'm gonna just say Christianity, because not all religions are the same, but it can be used for such evil so easily, because it does, it's like, no, focus over here, focus over, nope, all of the answers are.
with God and he will tell you those after you pass away and you meet him. And it's like, that is not satisfying to me.
Emanuel (51:14)
Well, that's also
why I personally don't romanticize suffering and I don't try to center suffering into like, you know, being religious, religious or some type of like, I don't know, is it word piety? I don't know. Because like who suffered more than fucking black people? You know what saying? Like, you mean to tell me one, you know I'm saying? Like I'm black.
Roberta (51:18)
Mm, mm-hmm.
This is...
Emanuel (51:39)
or like Latin, you know what saying? Or like Hawaiian. And then on top of that, I got to participate in Palestinian. And then on top of that, I got to participate in a religion that has me suffer more. Like...
Sonia (51:43)
Palestinian.
What do you mean by that? What do
you mean by that sentence Where you said you don't couple suffering with religion or?
Emanuel (51:57)
Because I feel like suffering is in the context of the world as we know it now has just been used to like keep people controlled and complacent. Like so your whole point about being so heavenly bound but like earthly, you know, no good, whatever, screw that, screwing that. I do feel like, like, yeah, like you get people so caught up in.
Sonia (52:05)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (52:16)
romanticizing the nobility of suffering and being a good Christian because your crown has already been like paid for me. Well, I'm like, Hey girl, we gotta fight for these rights. You know what I'm saying? Cause like they out here killing us. Like they defending our neighborhoods. Elon is building plants in like our neighborhoods, poisoning people. You know what saying? So it's just like what they're
Sonia (52:33)
Yeah.
Emanuel (52:37)
And these are very extreme examples and like, you know, and I'm very aware of that. However, like they do kind of illustrate a pattern of how black people sometimes have been taught to just be okay with poor circumstances.
and that religion is supposed to help you endure the suffering instead of like activating the God, I mean the blessings and the authority that God has given you to improve your life and your circumstances. But like I don't feel like the powers that be want to have that conversation because like then it takes it away from religion and to like power structure and like it's very difficult for like the church be it the Catholic church or the Protestants, whoever to not look
Sonia (52:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Roberta (53:07)
Right, yes.
Emanuel (53:24)
like the huge institutions that they are in this dynamic. You know what saying? So like, that's just like me. I'm just, not, I have never, you know, I don't disagree with Buddhists, but I'm just like being a black man from black people in the United States of America, I will never glorify suffering. And especially in my religious and spiritual world. I just won't.
Sonia (53:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and suffering
is, I mean, I think the most prevalent example of that is Job, right, in the Bible. the, the,
Emanuel (53:54)
Yeah, and people love Job They're honored. They are honored when shit ain't
going well and they just like well if Job
then I can do it too, just like, hey baby, Job suffered for like specific reasons. You're suffering because of institutionalized racism and wage discrimination and like medical discrimination and environmental racism and like really shitty politicians. You know what saying? Like this is all stuff you can change today. You don't have to get squirreled about as well. You can change this tomorrow.
Sonia (54:04)
you
Roberta (54:09)
I'm ⁓
Yadira (54:26)
Or the people that wouldn't want to go to college because Jesus was coming soon. yes, when I was young, there were people that believed college would be a waste of time because Jesus was coming soon. And we needed to be more focused on church things than earthly things. And to that...
Emanuel (54:30)
Yes, yes, yes.
Sonia (54:32)
Wait, what?
Roberta (54:47)
Isn't that like the main
thing of like Jehovah's Witness like and then like part of it? Like they just didn't participate in some of the things because there's no point because
Yadira (54:55)
Perhaps it is for the same belief. I am grateful and I have to make this parenthesis that my parents were so focused on education that that was not a belief in my household even though some folks in my church did believe that.
Sonia (55:04)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (55:07)
Hmm.
Sonia (55:08)
Interesting. All right, Roberta, where do we go from here in our outline, which we have completely obliterated?
Roberta (55:15)
I know, I know, mean
Emanuel (55:17)
I thought it was a loose outline anyway though, right? So like, you're good. You're good, you're good.
Roberta (55:17)
the part, it was very The part, think, I mean we've, it was the beginning, middle, and end, right? And so the end part is the future piece. And the question I had, and we kind of sort of talked about it, but like what is it?
Sonia (55:19)
It was very loose.
Yeah.
Roberta (55:36)
As we age, what is it about our faith that is shifting and for what reason, if it is shifting, is it because we're getting closer to the end of our life? And or are there pieces for those of us who have children and have very concrete legacies? Is there something in the faith, in religion, in the way we practice that we want to carry on to the next generation? And if so, what is that and for what reason?
Sonia (56:04)
Don't start with me, Yadira
Roberta (56:05)
Yeah
Yadira (56:06)
Yes,
okay. So what is important to me today and to pass on to my children is to know God. That has never changed, right? Like that was on my list of things. I was looking for a partner before I met Elvin was he has to know and serve God because it was important for me to pass on that legacy to the children. Now, what
has changed or how that definition looks like today is how are we as a family and as individuals that are part of this family demonstrating to be a living intangible demonstration of love towards one another because we're not in this world alone and as Christians we are intended to be God's love here on earth for another human being right like that's what I want them to understand that Christianity is.
right? And that looks like service trips, that looks like caring for a friend, standing up for a friend, standing up for people that are being abused, marginalized, right? Like it looks like so many different things in their lives today. But that to me is the legacy. That to me is Christianity.
Sonia (57:13)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (57:24)
Um, I feel like and I've been thinking about this for a while and I feel like my legacy is going to be for the broader community. Like I've been very transparent across social media about my transition from Christianity like into hoodoo and then like back to like some type of hybrid model.
And then also like being very forthcoming about like my spiritual experiences and like, know, how I feel like if you have spiritual gifts and you
call to help people and he should be helping people because like God creates healers and God places healers on earth. And I feel like the older I get, the more I appreciate the practicality of spirituality. And that is like, if something ain't right, if something ain't going right, I know how to get it right. You know what saying? If something ain't moving, I know how to get it moving. If somebody needs help, I know exactly how to help them. And a lot of people don't get that from organized religion. Like I remember a gentleman called me and he, you know,
He got my number from like a cousin or whatever and he was just like I Am at a crossroads in life and I need some type of guidance and someone recommended he speak to me and I was like Well, what have you done? So like you answered because I'm not gonna pretend like I have all my answers and he said he went to church And I was just like what their pastor told you he was like what he told me to join the church
Yadira (58:47)
see.
Emanuel (58:47)
And like, unfortunately, a lot of people like go to religion with like very real, like practical problems and they don't get any answers. So that's why I feel like, you know, the older I get, the more I just appreciate the practicality of being a spiritual person.
And in terms of like legacy, like I don't have children, but I have a lot of people who just like listen to what I have to say about Hoodoo and about black spirituality and about religion. And, and I study like black beliefs and black spiritual communities. And I just kind of feel like if I just continue to do this work, like more people are going to have,
Answers that they are looking for but also create communities so they don't feel alone in trying to search for these answers and If I can do that and I will do that like when I do that like I would know I would have done what God wanted me to do in this lifetime
Sonia (59:39)
I guess you want me to go, Roberta, your continued silence. It's saying go. In terms of what I see for the future, I think what's important to me is using or understanding God as a reflection of, or as a part of who I am. Like,
Roberta (59:41)
Yes, go ahead.
Sonia (59:58)
How do I become more of myself, by being connected to God. Is that solidifying my values, solidifying my morals, solidifying who I am as a person? I want people to see and know God through me, right? Like I want that to be exhibited in how I behave and how I treat people.
and how I raise my kids. For my kids specifically, you know, they are 13 and 14. what I would like for them to get from being spiritual is that they can tap into it. Like how do they use spirituality?
to give them strength, to give them faith, right? being able to tap into the source of God in order to help you make decisions, And to me, it is like developing who you are as a person and being able to lean on that.
When I'm not here, when, you know, or their dad is not here, Who do you tap into? And part of, to me, part of knowing God is knowing yourself. Like when you know him, at least this is how I feel, then you are more connected to who you are.
but it is important to me that they know that there is a God, that he is powerful and you can access him, right? Right? You can tap into that. Like there is something to be gained from that relationship.
Yadira (1:01:25)
Do you hope they get baptized at some point, Sonia?
Sonia (1:01:28)
They've never been baptized. But I also strongly believe that you should make a decision to be baptized. Like, I don't know, because you know, the way we grew up, you got baptized when you were five. And if you chose, you can get baptized when you're, yeah, well. That's a, christening is different than a baptism.
Emanuel (1:01:40)
And there you go.
Roberta (1:01:41)
Yeah, I was a baby.
Yadira (1:01:43)
No, I was
Yeah, like I was not baptized until I was able to make my own decision. So at 13 is when I got baptized and I want the same for my children, but they haven't made the decision. So my children are baptized.
Roberta (1:01:52)
you
Sonia (1:01:52)
Yeah.
Yeah, I definitely
believe the decision of being baptized and understanding what does that mean? Like, what does that mean to you? And why do you want to do it is important. I was baptized but I have no memory. I don't even know if anybody asked me. I thought it was a part of being a part of the church. You join the church, next week you get baptized Every second Sunday or every this Sunday you baptize new people. That's how it worked.
Emanuel (1:02:01)
Mmm.
Yadira (1:02:22)
I got baptized like three
times in my life.
Sonia (1:02:25)
Yeah, I think you, I mean, I feel like you could, because there are people, adults who get baptized too. So.
Emanuel (1:02:31)
Can't you just put some holy
water in a water balloon and walk up behind Hunter and be like, you know, like pow pow in the name.
Sonia (1:02:35)
Pshh, pshh. I just go over
and pray for him. Pray for him. Spare the water.
Emanuel (1:02:42)
Yeah, that works. That works.
Roberta (1:02:46)
to the bathroom.
Well, for me, I don't have a legacy, like, for real.
Sonia (1:02:53)
You don't have, you have a legacy. Yeah, I'm like, you have a legacy.
Yadira (1:02:54)
You do have a legacy.
Emanuel (1:02:54)
Why do say that?
Alright.
Sonia (1:02:59)
Please don't make this another hour, because why we gotta explain to you why you got a legacy?
Roberta (1:02:59)
have
Emanuel (1:03:01)
Yeah
Roberta (1:03:05)
Particular like in the most literal sense, right? I I don't have right. I don't have in the most literal sense, right? I don't have children of legacy. I don't have ⁓
Emanuel (1:03:05)
Yeah
Sonia (1:03:06)
You do not have children.
Emanuel (1:03:13)
That's not a legacy.
You got motherfuckers with kids and they don't have no legacy. Kids don't equate to legacy. Yeah.
Roberta (1:03:18)
Well, right, so I'm saying, like, I'm taking it all the way across
the spectrum of, from the most literal, like, kids, I don't have that legacy, but I also don't have people that, like, look to me for any sense of wisdom or anything, like, in that regard. Like, I don't have anything of, like, that kind of... Yeah, I don't live that way.
So for me, spirituality as I age is more about understanding myself and my place. And so for when it does come to the point of transition that I understand how I'm connected, I'll still be connected to all things and souls and spirits in my network. And to some extent I do...
The way my definition of purpose and life purpose has changed because of my spirituality and so how I define purpose now, I used to take influence of like your purpose is your work, your life's work and like and I don't believe that anymore. I never really believed it but I definitely don't believe it now. I think purpose comes in all the small human interactions that we have.
find purpose in, know, somebody could smile at someone and that impacts their world in a different way and sets off this whole chain reaction of events that benefits their life. Like that, to me, that is a purpose. I think we all have hundreds, if not thousands of them. And so I've just become more keenly aware of those interactions. so, and I don't even honestly think it takes intention. I think a lot of those things happen on accident.
But yeah, it's just become more of an in my awareness. And yeah, it it causes me to move through the world differently, a lot lighter. And yeah, as I age and knowing the unpredictability of the human side of things, it just gives me more of a ease and a peace. But yeah, I don't have a sense of legacy or continuity.
once I'm not here in human form anymore.
Sonia (1:05:18)
Mm-hmm.
Emanuel (1:05:20)
As far as you know, exchange tomorrow. You don't know what guy has planned for you.
Sonia (1:05:23)
It could change. But I was just like, millions
Roberta (1:05:23)
It could.
Sonia (1:05:25)
of people live and die and we don't know who they are. But does that mean that they were any less? Because I think not any less. Yeah. And I also think legacy is, is that like, is that, feel like there's some capitalism wrapped up in there. Like that there, that legacy is a tangible thing, right? Legacy can be stories that people pass on or.
Roberta (1:05:28)
Exactly.
I won't say any less, it's just that they don't have a legacy.
Sonia (1:05:48)
when people talk about you and you're no longer here. Like that could be legacy, doesn't, you know.
Roberta (1:05:51)
Right, right, but I
also don't think that I have had or had like that much significance that people will talk about me in any significant way once I'm not here. I don't, you know.
Sonia (1:06:00)
Mm.
Emanuel (1:06:02)
Well, if the girl don't, if the girl feel like she don't no legs, then she ain't got no legs.
Yadira (1:06:08)
She'll
find out when she's on the other side when we over here talking about her.
Sonia (1:06:11)
So
Roberta (1:06:11)
Yay!
Sonia (1:06:11)
I...
Emanuel (1:06:12)
And look, we can be like, she ain't do nothing. Her whole life, that girl, she ain't done a damn thing. Just sit here and drink wine. Yeah, yeah. ⁓
Roberta (1:06:15)
Right?
Yadira (1:06:19)
You know, I drink some good wine, because there was a Roberta in my life.
Roberta (1:06:19)
Just took up some space.
Sonia (1:06:22)
Right, exactly. You did?
Roberta (1:06:22)
She created some life with these damn trees, but that's about it.
Sonia (1:06:26)
So I have a question. Roberta, you talked about like reincarnation coming back. You don't go, like if we come back as something else, we're coming back in the future as we know it as the future. We won't, like you won't be like reincarnated back to the Civil War. You don't re, do you re-incar, is this a dumb question? We can cut this out.
Roberta (1:06:46)
No, no, it's a very interesting question because like you think of like,
Emanuel (1:06:46)
No, it's not. It's a very interesting question.
Roberta (1:06:50)
different realms and platforms of energy, right? Then time is wrapped into that and like, yeah, did all these things coexist at the same time? Potentially, maybe, I don't know. I don't have the answer. So I don't disbelieve that, but I don't believe it. Sure, possible.
Sonia (1:06:56)
Like the multiverse.
Emanuel (1:07:07)
In some
African traditions and religions, they feel like we are like reincarnated ancestors. And like people would tell you that like, you know, they have, they realize in the past life they were like, you know, so and so, or like, you know, there's books written, there's one called...
Water and spirit, I think by Patrice Maladoma Somme basically like he basically He records or tells his whole initiation process until like the the religion of like his tribe I forgot what country we're from like in Africa. I Feel like he was a Sangoma. I don't know to give it wrong. But basically like he talks about
through the initiation process, like learning why he was so close with his grandfather because he was his grandfather's brother reincarnated. So like from an ancestral perspective, like it kind of continues to pay forward, not necessarily go back because those lives have already been lived. Yeah.
Sonia (1:07:54)
Mm-hmm.
Not backwards. Lived, okay.
Roberta (1:08:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yadira (1:08:03)
I feel like it would have to have a different name not reincarnation. It would have to go back incarnation
Sonia (1:08:04)
Thank you.
Roberta (1:08:08)
Mm-hmm.
Sonia (1:08:11)
images.
Roberta (1:08:13)
Perhaps.
Sonia (1:08:14)
All right, Roberta. my God, guys. This has been a great conversation. It's been a marathon for us completely. So to end this conversation, we always end with a CTA. Yadira Emanuel, what would you like to leave with the listeners? That's your CTA.
Emanuel (1:08:15)
Retro carnation.
This is, this is a marathon, yes.
Roberta (1:08:21)
Yes,
Yadira (1:08:33)
would like
for folks to find a living, intangible way to be the demonstration of love towards somebody else.
One of the ways that I learned this is through the book, The Politics of Jesus by Aubrey Hendricks, because he pointed out how Jesus was stopped many times on his way to preaching, on his way to doing something. And for Jesus, people's needs were holy. That's why he stopped. So to me, like after I learned that, like, I've lived my life understanding that people's needs are holy. And if Jesus could stop for that, then that's a priority in my life as well.
Sonia (1:08:58)
Mmm.
Amazing. Emanuel?
Emanuel (1:09:12)
I love that.
Hoodoo practitioner CTA, cleanse the house, mop them floors, sweep them corners, open the windows, let the fresh air in, light a candle, relaxing in space, prepare a space for your blessings.
Roberta (1:09:27)
Actually mine is kind of similar. would say to be still. Take some moments to just be still, clear your minds, literally be quiet. And if you meditate, lean into your practice.
Sonia (1:09:40)
And I guess mine will be that continue to ask questions, continue to be curious, follow your curiosity. I probably asked some dumb questions in this podcast, but find people who love you, who will not judge you, and continue to...
scratch your curiosity and that could be in conversation, that can be in books, but you know, continue to ask questions and that's it. you hung in there, thank you for hanging in there with us and we will see you next
